Salon #7a: Please stay in your sections for this 7th Salon.  Refer back to Salon 6 if you need to know which section you are in.

First, I want to say how interesting I found your reactions both to the film Lonestar and to the Wilson questions.  I also thought that students responding to other students for the most part went very well.  So we will try this again this week. 

Second, we are running a little late, but there is so much material to process that it seems worthwhile to devote more time to delving deeper into what we are discussing.  So you should receive Salon #7 by Thursday, Nov. 12 and responses to this Salon #7should be in by Wednesday, Nov. 18.

Third, there will be three parts to this Salon, be sure that you address each of them. 

Fourth, let me add here that I have received so many hate mail web sites from you that I am getting our program secretary to develop a comprehensive list and that will be distributed to you by e-mail next week and form one of the questions for the second paper.

Mini-lecture for Salon #7:

We have now covered a lot of ground in trying to think about "inequality" in the American context.  Many of you stated that "Lonestar" addressed a very broad range of "inequality" issues. Note that the film both focused on inter-racial (e.g., the soldier who finds the skeleton who wants to marry Priscilla; Otis and Hollis or Otis and Buddy; Sam and Pilar) and intra-racial relationships (e.g., Otis and Del, Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit, Mercedes and her Latino employees).  It focused on inter-gender (e.g., Sam and Pilar, Sam and his ex-wife Bunny; Buddy and Mercedes, Otis and the woman he left his wife for) and on intra-gender (e.g., Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit; Pilar and daughter; Hollis and Charlie Wade).  It focused on inter-generational (e.g., Buddy and Sam, Mercedes and Pilar and Pilar's son, Otis and Del and his son) and intra-generational (e.g., Buddy and Hollis and Otis and Charlie, Sam and Pilar and Bunny).  There are ties and strains across all forms of these interpersonal relationships.  In some cases the ties seem stronger than the strains, in some cases the strains seem stronger than the bonds.

A few students mentioned that they thought that some aspects of "Lonestar" seemed to take a patriarchical view in which the man's perspective is set up as more important than the woman's--the man's behaviors and actions are more accepted and considered more justifiable than the woman's.  The film was written and directed by a man (John Sayles) so it was at some level clearly a man's point of view.   For those of you who saw the film, Beloved, there was a sense that what was selected to be shown in the film was very much the women's stories and less the story of Paul D., the main male character.  This is a perspective that it is good to keep in mind whatever one is reading or viewing.

We have been considering the position of African Americans in American society through a broad range of the materials we've looked at this term:  Beloved, Lonestar, Wilson's: When Work Disappears.  We've been discussing why blacks in America have had a struggle to move towards equal status.  Note the different situations in which we've viewed American blacks:  under slavery and coping with their situations after slavery (Beloved), as a small minority in a Texas border town where Latinos are the major "minority" group, and in the "ghettos" of Chicago which are largely segregated.  Each of these social contexts places blacks in an "unequal" position--but there are very interesting differences in the types of access to and opportunity for success.

Parent/child relations are very central to the development of human society.  Without a real bond to one's adult caretakers' (probably most critically to one's mother) a child cannot develop a sense of social commitment, of a link to a broader human community.  From the parent's perspective, the tie to a child is very intense.   There is a sense of needing to assume responsibility to bring the child into the human community, to nurture the child to ultimately replace oneself in human society.   There may be a biological dimension to this since one sees many aspects of this behavior in various animal species. 

Wilson's argument is that if the family cannot provide the economic and social foundation for their children, then the children may be vulnerable to all sorts of anti-social outcomes.  Here is where various types of welfare programs, early education programs, and other types of human service organizations and programs can help to fill the gaps that families (and mothers) in poverty cannot easily supply.  Yet Wilson argues that many who live in urban ghettos are not necessarily defeated and do not represent the "media" image of poor ghetto residents.

You should keep in mind that social relations and racial and gender interrelations of all sorts are nuanced.  They aren't always exactly one thing or another.  This complexity is clearly presented in Wilson's study of black ghettos in Chicago and in the film "Lonestar."  One might say that there may be tendencies or pressures in a certain direction, but social relations and social structures (the occupational structure,  income distributions, family structures) are always undergoing change and the same situation can appear very different to different individuals.

One of the qualities that I hope that you will carry away from this course is the complexity of American society and the need to keep one's perspectives flexible so that you can see the same situation from different vantage points.   Naturally, each of us have certain values and beliefs that we use in a way as filters through which we see things and interpret their meanings.  But to think carefully about the subject of inequality, we do need to try to take the perspectives of others to just try to have some sense of what a social position, a social situation would be like were we to have to handle it.  This also helps us to form the "looking glass self" which the famous sociologist George Herbert Mead described in which one looks at oneself as others might view one.

You have three assignments in Salon 7:

(1) Returning to the Salon 6 (a, b, c, or d sections) discussions of "Lonestar," take one of the two-way interactions of two students in YOUR section (you could be one of those students) and indicate how the second student responded to the first student's answer.  Now you join this conversation by adding a third response to this question relating to both the first and the second students' discussions. (Be sure to send your response to the correct Salon section:  7a or 7b or 7c or 7d--to whichever one you have been assigned.)

(2) Why does Wilson support the neo-WPA  jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city? (WPA stands for Works Progress Administration which was set up during the Great Depression in the 1930s as a way to provide jobs--such as building national parks, etc. for the unemployed.)

(3) Let's return to my mini-lecture discussion about "strains and ties."  On the basis of what you've been exposed to this semester in terms of all aspects of this course, which relations appear to you to create the greatest "strains" -- inter-racial?  inter-gender? or inter-generational?

Finally: if you've seen the film Beloved, what were your reactions to it?   How well did it depict the book?

Enter your comments below (Don't forget to submit):

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Salon #7 Responses  

Garrettini garrett@... responded:

Another test

Wed Nov 18 11:51:32 PST 1998

Ledia Flores lediaflor@hotmail.com responded:

1) In response to salon 6d: I would like to comment on Sheila's comment to my question about the relationship between Mercedes (mother) and Pilar (daughter). I would like to say that I think that Mercedes was judgmental in a very unusual way and not out of concerned as a parent. It appears to me that she was really angry and frustrated about something else. Further, I think that it had nothing to do with Pilar dating a caucasian man. After all, she was just as disapproving if not hateful of Pilar's deceased husband who happened to have been hispanic. Moreover, if she was just a judgmental parent we would have seen her taking a more active role as a parent and grandparent. I actually see Mercedes wanting to remain in her own "little world" (whatever that may be) and only being concerned in living the American dream which she interprets as: English-only, making money and more money, and leaving behind her roots. I agree with Sarah in her response to Jim's. I do not believe that Sam is a manipulative person. He in no moment neglected Pilar. They were both kept apart by their parents when they were found having sex in the back seat of Buddy's car. I think that his problem after he moved back to town was that he just did not know how to approach her. 2) I think that Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner-city because it is the most comprehensive according to him. He approves of it because it would employ a high proportion of workers with few skills and little or no work experience; it would basically provide individual in the inner-city with some skills which they can later take somewhere else. He also says that it would address the economic marginality that the inner-city poor have been victims of. He does however, also says that it should be aimed at broad segments of the U.S. population that have also been affected by global economic changes. 3) Although they all cause great strain in society, I believe that inter-generational relations probably cause the most strain. If someone was able to developed a good bonding with a parent or caregiver, he/she is better able to deal with the other strains that he/she will encounter throughout his/her life. For example, we see how important or critical the developement of a healthy relationship was for Beloved and Seth, Willie and his son, Mercedes and Pilar, Buddy and Sam, etc. Yet, there is no easy answer to this question because inter-racial and inter-gender relations cause great strain too.

Wed Nov 18 11:52:25 PST 1998

Ledia Flores lediaflor@hotmail.com responded:

1) In response to salon 6d: I would like to comment on Sheila's comment to my question about the relationship between Mercedes (mother) and Pilar (daughter). I would like to say that I think that Mercedes was judgmental in a very unusual way and not out of concerned as a parent. It appears to me that she was really angry and frustrated about something else. Further, I think that it had nothing to do with Pilar dating a caucasian man. After all, she was just as disapproving if not hateful of Pilar's deceased husband who happened to have been hispanic. Moreover, if she was just a judgmental parent we would have seen her taking a more active role as a parent and grandparent. I actually see Mercedes wanting to remain in her own "little world" (whatever that may be) and only being concerned in living the American dream which she interprets as: English-only, making money and more money, and leaving behind her roots. I agree with Sarah in her response to Jim's. I do not believe that Sam is a manipulative person. He in no moment neglected Pilar. They were both kept apart by their parents when they were found having sex in the back seat of Buddy's car. I think that his problem after he moved back to town was that he just did not know how to approach her. 2) I think that Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner-city because it is the most comprehensive according to him. He approves of it because it would employ a high proportion of workers with few skills and little or no work experience; it would basically provide individual in the inner-city with some skills which they can later take somewhere else. He also says that it would address the economic marginality that the inner-city poor have been victims of. He does however, also says that it should be aimed at broad segments of the U.S. population that have also been affected by global economic changes. 3) Although they all cause great strain in society, I believe that inter-generational relations probably cause the most strain. If someone was able to developed a good bonding with a parent or caregiver, he/she is better able to deal with the other strains that he/she will encounter throughout his/her life. For example, we see how important or critical the developement of a healthy relationship was for Beloved and Seth, Willie and his son, Mercedes and Pilar, Buddy and Sam, etc. Yet, there is no easy answer to this question because inter-racial and inter-gender relations cause great strain too.

Wed Nov 18 20:02:38 PST 1998

Sarah Dyroff Sdky7 responded:

Responding to Veronica Castelo's response to Jill Gustus: 1) I think you're right in that the Colonel had more opportunities than Otis did. The Colonel had a better chance at life, or at least things were easier for him than they were for Otis.I believe credit is due to Otis because of how hard he had it from the start. Otis wasn't they type of person to just "roll over" and I think he passed that onto his son. This could be partly why the Colonel choose to be in the military, because he liked that way of life. Otis and his son seem to have an inner strength which was also part of the reason they were both so stubborn. 2) Wilson support's the neo-WPA because he believes it would help solve the economic and social problems in inner cities.There would once again be employment for anyone who wanted it, even in the inner city neightborhoods. Income levels would rise due to earned income tax credit, universal health care and day care would be incentives for those who can, to go out and seek employment without the fear of not being able to afford medical care for their sick children, or a safe place for them to stay. With more job availability, all types of crime and drug dealings would decline, families would be stronger and people would be beter able to work with each other, instead of against each other. Attitudes towards inner city people would stand a better chance in the eyes of employer's. childre, who are the hope of the future, could see hope in their lives once more and strive for a better life.3) Inter-racial seems to have the greatest strains and ties. Once a relationship has be severed, for example, the tragic lives of slaves as depicted in "Beloved", there never seems to be equal ground anymore. One group feels they are owed something due to past experiences, another feels they owe it to them. Also, there are those who have neither emotion, but are trapped in a society that either bends one way or the other to try and accommodate and balance things, but nothing ever seems to equal out. 4) Unfortunately, I have not yet sen the movied "Beloved", but would like to, the previews looked good.

Wed Nov 18 20:02:39 PST 1998

Sarah Dyroff Sdky7 responded:

Responding to Veronica Castelo's response to Jill Gustus: 1) I think you're right in that the Colonel had more opportunities than Otis did. The Colonel had a better chance at life, or at least things were easier for him than they were for Otis.I believe credit is due to Otis because of how hard he had it from the start. Otis wasn't they type of person to just "roll over" and I think he passed that onto his son. This could be partly why the Colonel choose to be in the military, because he liked that way of life. Otis and his son seem to have an inner strength which was also part of the reason they were both so stubborn. 2) Wilson support's the neo-WPA because he believes it would help solve the economic and social problems in inner cities.There would once again be employment for anyone who wanted it, even in the inner city neightborhoods. Income levels would rise due to earned income tax credit, universal health care and day care would be incentives for those who can, to go out and seek employment without the fear of not being able to afford medical care for their sick children, or a safe place for them to stay. With more job availability, all types of crime and drug dealings would decline, families would be stronger and people would be beter able to work with each other, instead of against each other. Attitudes towards inner city people would stand a better chance in the eyes of employer's. childre, who are the hope of the future, could see hope in their lives once more and strive for a better life.3) Inter-racial seems to have the greatest strains and ties. Once a relationship has be severed, for example, the tragic lives of slaves as depicted in "Beloved", there never seems to be equal ground anymore. One group feels they are owed something due to past experiences, another feels they owe it to them. Also, there are those who have neither emotion, but are trapped in a society that either bends one way or the other to try and accommodate and balance things, but nothing ever seems to equal out. 4) Unfortunately, I have not yet sen the movied "Beloved", but would like to, the previews looked good.

Wed Nov 18 21:31:59 PST 1998

Jim Currey curreys@mailhost2csusm.edu responded:

1. In response to Ledia's response to Veronica's question regarding Mercedes trying very hard to be an American. I think that Mercedes is not trying to forget her identity as a Hispanic, but that she want to be more American. She has come to a new country and wants to fit in. For her to be an American with an upper class economic situation is important to her. I think that she is trying to teach her employees that to "make it" in the U.S. that you must understand and speak English (her opinion, not necessarily mine)She still keeps her culture, look at her Spanish style ranch house and her radio played a Spanish song "Sabor A Mi." I think that she may have forgotten her past how she came across the border until she remembered that someone else (Buddy) helped her across and she decided to help her employee bring his wife and friends across and take them to a doctor who would help her and hide them. 2.Wilson supports the WPA-style jobs plan because it would work. He states that this plan is the most comprehensive because it wuld maintain the infrastructure and provide labor intensive public service jobs. It would provide jobs not only for the inner-city poor, but for anybody. It would provide opportunities for advancement and experience for transfering skills to the private sector. He also stated that the program would focus on problems not only afflicting the poor but the working and middle class. This would promote social and economic improvements. 3. The greatest "strains" facing society today are inter-racial. As long as some people of different racial groups stereotype other races we will continue to have problems. If I feel that we have to look at the individual and not judge him/her because of their color. We must be tolerant and guide those less fortunate than others. Education is the key and all persons must be given equal opportunity and must have encouragement to succeed. After reading Wilson's book I am amazed that the ghetto situation is that bad. Something has to be done to improve this and soon! I don't want to seem fatalistic but I just don't see any improvement in the near future. I wonder what happened to the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. Have the people given up? Have we all become too concerned with ourselves and not interested in society as a whole? I think that gender issues are being solved and inter-generation issues will continue, but racial issues don't seem to have an answer To me, this is the greatest strain on our society.4 I saw the movie "Beloved" and I think that it followed the story line in the book considerably well. If I had not read the book I may have not liked the movie. I did not envision Opra playing Sethe as well as she did. She showed that she really has "roots" and can be very ethnic! The movie focused more on interpersonal relationships than the issues of freedom and inequality. But, that's what the public pays to see!

Wed Nov 18 23:31:29 PST 1998

veronica castelo vcastelo01@aol.com responded:

1.)I would like to respond to Ledia's answer to Shiela's question: Is Pilar so judgemental about Mercedes life because of a generation gap? I have to say that I agree with Ledia when she said that Pilar was judgemental about the life of Mercedes because she was looking out for her daughter (as most parents do). I can agree with Ledia's answer because I am a parent myself and we are all judgemental about our children, I think it's in our nature as parents to act that way; we all want the best for our kids. In addition, I would like to say that I think Pilar's judgements did in part stem from the generation gap. Pilar came from Mexico, Mercedes is an American citizen (both of whom came from different generations), therefore, there were different opportunities and different views on life from both perspectives. Pilar wanted Mercedes to have more opportunities than she had. I find this to be the main reason behind Pilars judgemental attitudes towards Mercedes. As a parent, we sometimes expect too much from our children, nothing is ever good enough (especially in many Hispanic households/cultures, I can speak from experience! even though I do not necessarily belive in this)which is why Pilar was so hard on her daughter, she wanted more out of her, she wanted her to excel in every aspect of life, all to fit her selfish needs. 2.)Wilson supports the neo WPA for many reasons, but the main reason that Wilson supports it is because it would provide jobs for every person willing to work. It would give all men and women the opportuinties to excel in the work world because it would provide them with experiences which could be used for transition into the private sectors of society's working class. In addition, parents would be able to work because the government would provide day-care for all children, transportation would be readily available to and from work, health care would be provided (which means that parents would not have to worry about spending all of their income when their children become ill), and earned-income tax credit would be supplemented, etc, etc. (the list could go on and on). As Wilson states, "the program would promote social and economical improvements benefiting all groups in society, not just the truly disadvantaged segments of the population". Everyone would benefit from this program, it would decrease welfare, provide social and economical improvements, and it would promote a sense of responsibility to all participants; which could also be looked at as providing children with someone to look up to (instead of constantly seeing their parents as unemployed welfare collectors). This program could be the best remedy for fixing up America's economic deficiencies, and promote stability and economic growth in all sectors of society. 3.) I have to say that I think inter-racial factors cause the most strains in today's society, although both inter-gender and inter-generational factors do provide similar strains. I hate to say this, but I think that African Americans have suffered the most in America's society. Due to the fact that they were brought to America as slaves, and due to the fact that they are constantly badgered as lazy people who sit at home, have tons of children, are drug users and abusers, and are mere unemployed welfare collectors (I got this from Wilsons book), says a lot about the strains that inter-racial factors have placed on the African American community as a whole. African Americans have been subjected to racial segregateion, cruel treatment, and have faced lots of negative biases, steorotypes, and other forms of social criticism; in a sense, this group has been dismembered from our American society (as a result of those factors listed above). Because of their "race", they are looked at differently, they are not given the opportunities and freedoms that should be granted to them as Americans. For example, they are not favored in the work world, nor are they favored when it comes to education (such as Schleisenger suggests), as well as in the inner-cities (they are provided with the worst housing, etc). For decades now, we have been trying to overcome these inter-racial strains, but it seems as though ignorant people all over the planet (specifically the U.S.) tend to have racial biases, tensions, and stereotypes against the black community. I think that this is a total shame because it does not give way for all ethnically diverse people (especially black people) to get ahead and move into an equal, free, and prosperous civilization; a world in which all Americans should be entitled to. 4.) As for Beloved, well unfortunately I have not been able to see the movie, although I would love to see it (I am just overwhelmed with homework, and raising a one year old on my own places somewhat of a draw-back on my social lfe). I heard that it was a good movie, but someone told me that it focuses more on Paul D. than it does on Beloved and Sethe, is this true? I'll make sure to buy the movie when it comes out on video!

Thu Nov 19 20:11:26 PST 1998

sheila morrison cdckidzmom@aol.com responded:

In response to veronicas response to Sarah's question #2 I agree that the fact that Otis was an absentee parent is the basis for their problems. I felt that Otis was completely ready to establish a relationship with his son but knew that it had to be on the Colonel's terms. It seemed to me that the Colonel had trouble getting close in all of his relationships (for instance his relationsip with his son.) However, this is typical of a person who was abandoned by a parent. I think the Colonal was justified in his wariness of opening up to his father because he didn't want to get hurt. I think Otis was smart not to force the issue because he would have probably driven his son away. The scene in the movie where Otis' wife shows the Colonal the "shrine" his father had created is a reminder that although it may seem that someone doesn't care it may be that they just don't know how to show it. Wilson supports the neo-WPA as a means to employ anyone who desires to work. The jobs he supports creating have a two-fold benifit, employing the jobless and taking care of community needs. He addresses the main ingrediant laking in most of the plans in the works today, that of daycare. It would be impossible for a single parent to work for minimum wage and pay for daycare for one or more children. I have always felt that there should be a government provided daycare for those on welfare so that they could get a job. This would also benifit the children by making sure they were is a safe environment and getting 1-2 hot meals per day. Wilson's also supports this plan because it encourages people to move into the private sector and get out of the system. Another promising aspect of this program is that it wouldn't penalize people for trying to better their lives as welfare currently does. Wilson agrees that in this system people would not benifit by staying unmarried nor by having more children. In the current welfare system a person is not allowed to make additional money or they are docked on their welfare check. With the neo-WPA that Wilson supports people could try to better their place in society without being penalized. Considering the sources we have been studying this semester, I feel that the greatest strain in our society is that of inter-racial. It is put forth in each of the works we looked at. The Declaration of Independance is so racially biased it doesn't even consider the slaves to be men in it's statement that "all men are created equal." Beloved illustrates the point in Black and White--literally. Finally, Lonestar magnifies the current day struggles between races.(Black-White, Hispanic-White, and Black-Hispanic) Although I feel that Inter-racial relations pose the greatest strains, I do feel that each of these relations are tightly inter-woven and each affects the other. (As was evidenced in Lonestar.)

Fri Nov 20 14:51:52 PST 1998

Jill Gustus gustu001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. I would like to respond to Ledia Flores response to "Veronica's question regarding Mercedes trying very hard to be an American." I would have to completely agree with what Ledia stated, Mercedes didn't want anything that had to do with her heritage. She seemed to believe that being hispanic was a bad thing. In that to be a better person she had to forget her heritage. I also agree with Ledia's point in that Buddy could have had a lot to do with how mercedes feels about her heritage background. It is just too bad that she felt that way. 2. Wilson believes the WPA will help those who cannot obtain a job, meaning the people who don't have the skills or means of obtaining the jobs of today. The WPA will also help bring up the economy and It will help the inner-city people out of the poverty-stricken hole that they are stuck in. 3. I believe that inter-racial has the greatest "strains". People's lives are destroyed because of racial issues, just take what the african americans had to go through and how they are effected from it (even today). Racism is the biggest problem in our society today. A lot of people's lives would be different if racism didn't exist. (not to sound too corny)Our world would be a better place if color of skin didn't matter.