Salon #7a: Please stay in your sections for this 7th Salon.  Refer back to Salon 6 if you need to know which section you are in.

First, I want to say how interesting I found your reactions both to the film Lonestar and to the Wilson questions.  I also thought that students responding to other students for the most part went very well.  So we will try this again this week. 

Second, we are running a little late, but there is so much material to process that it seems worthwhile to devote more time to delving deeper into what we are discussing.  So you should receive Salon #7 by Thursday, Nov. 12 and responses to this Salon #7should be in by Wednesday, Nov. 18.

Third, there will be three parts to this Salon, be sure that you address each of them. 

Fourth, let me add here that I have received so many hate mail web sites from you that I am getting our program secretary to develop a comprehensive list and that will be distributed to you by e-mail next week and form one of the questions for the second paper.

Mini-lecture for Salon #7:

We have now covered a lot of ground in trying to think about "inequality" in the American context.  Many of you stated that "Lonestar" addressed a very broad range of "inequality" issues. Note that the film both focused on inter-racial (e.g., the soldier who finds the skeleton who wants to marry Priscilla; Otis and Hollis or Otis and Buddy; Sam and Pilar) and intra-racial relationships (e.g., Otis and Del, Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit, Mercedes and her Latino employees).  It focused on inter-gender (e.g., Sam and Pilar, Sam and his ex-wife Bunny; Buddy and Mercedes, Otis and the woman he left his wife for) and on intra-gender (e.g., Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit; Pilar and daughter; Hollis and Charlie Wade).  It focused on inter-generational (e.g., Buddy and Sam, Mercedes and Pilar and Pilar's son, Otis and Del and his son) and intra-generational (e.g., Buddy and Hollis and Otis and Charlie, Sam and Pilar and Bunny).  There are ties and strains across all forms of these interpersonal relationships.  In some cases the ties seem stronger than the strains, in some cases the strains seem stronger than the bonds.

A few students mentioned that they thought that some aspects of "Lonestar" seemed to take a patriarchical view in which the man's perspective is set up as more important than the woman's--the man's behaviors and actions are more accepted and considered more justifiable than the woman's.  The film was written and directed by a man (John Sayles) so it was at some level clearly a man's point of view.   For those of you who saw the film, Beloved, there was a sense that what was selected to be shown in the film was very much the women's stories and less the story of Paul D., the main male character.  This is a perspective that it is good to keep in mind whatever one is reading or viewing.

We have been considering the position of African Americans in American society through a broad range of the materials we've looked at this term:  Beloved, Lonestar, Wilson's: When Work Disappears.  We've been discussing why blacks in America have had a struggle to move towards equal status.  Note the different situations in which we've viewed American blacks:  under slavery and coping with their situations after slavery (Beloved), as a small minority in a Texas border town where Latinos are the major "minority" group, and in the "ghettos" of Chicago which are largely segregated.  Each of these social contexts places blacks in an "unequal" position--but there are very interesting differences in the types of access to and opportunity for success.

Parent/child relations are very central to the development of human society.  Without a real bond to one's adult caretakers' (probably most critically to one's mother) a child cannot develop a sense of social commitment, of a link to a broader human community.  From the parent's perspective, the tie to a child is very intense.   There is a sense of needing to assume responsibility to bring the child into the human community, to nurture the child to ultimately replace oneself in human society.   There may be a biological dimension to this since one sees many aspects of this behavior in various animal species. 

Wilson's argument is that if the family cannot provide the economic and social foundation for their children, then the children may be vulnerable to all sorts of anti-social outcomes.  Here is where various types of welfare programs, early education programs, and other types of human service organizations and programs can help to fill the gaps that families (and mothers) in poverty cannot easily supply.  Yet Wilson argues that many who live in urban ghettos are not necessarily defeated and do not represent the "media" image of poor ghetto residents.

You should keep in mind that social relations and racial and gender interrelations of all sorts are nuanced.  They aren't always exactly one thing or another.  This complexity is clearly presented in Wilson's study of black ghettos in Chicago and in the film "Lonestar."  One might say that there may be tendencies or pressures in a certain direction, but social relations and social structures (the occupational structure,  income distributions, family structures) are always undergoing change and the same situation can appear very different to different individuals.

One of the qualities that I hope that you will carry away from this course is the complexity of American society and the need to keep one's perspectives flexible so that you can see the same situation from different vantage points.   Naturally, each of us have certain values and beliefs that we use in a way as filters through which we see things and interpret their meanings.  But to think carefully about the subject of inequality, we do need to try to take the perspectives of others to just try to have some sense of what a social position, a social situation would be like were we to have to handle it.  This also helps us to form the "looking glass self" which the famous sociologist George Herbert Mead described in which one looks at oneself as others might view one.

You have three assignments in Salon 7:

(1) Returning to the Salon 6 (a, b, c, or d sections) discussions of "Lonestar," take one of the two-way interactions of two students in YOUR section (you could be one of those students) and indicate how the second student responded to the first student's answer.  Now you join this conversation by adding a third response to this question relating to both the first and the second students' discussions. (Be sure to send your response to the correct Salon section:  7a or 7b or 7c or 7d--to whichever one you have been assigned.)

(2) Why does Wilson support the neo-WPA  jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city? (WPA stands for Works Progress Administration which was set up during the Great Depression in the 1930s as a way to provide jobs--such as building national parks, etc. for the unemployed.)

(3) Let's return to my mini-lecture discussion about "strains and ties."  On the basis of what you've been exposed to this semester in terms of all aspects of this course, which relations appear to you to create the greatest "strains" -- inter-racial?  inter-gender? or inter-generational?

Finally: if you've seen the film Beloved, what were your reactions to it?   How well did it depict the book?

Enter your comments below (Don't forget to submit):

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Salon #7 Responses  

G. Collins garrett@... responded:

Tester

Tue Nov 17 00:07:51 PST 1998

Dan Brown Brown060@csusm responded:

1. K Keller In response to Julie's second question about the film "Lonestar", I do not think Mercedes was purposefully denying her heritage. She was a victim of circumstance. Her husband had been slain by Charlie Wade when he tried to take immigrants across the border. Mercedes treatment of the young immigrants may have been a fear response, in that when anybody of Mexican heritage tried to do what her husband was killed for, she subconsciously tried to stop them. I would like to repond Mercedes was not denying her heritage she was simply becoming a part of the american society that she originally risked her life for. It is important to become a part of the society not become a liberal seperatist and ram your former heritage down everyone elses "throats". I do not think that mercedes was reacting in fear of them being killed. She saw them as a threat when they came through her yard. She saw the "wetbacks" as a group that needed to asymilate to america. Constantly reminding them to speak english was a reminder to get them to be part of the country that provided the successful business and home that she earned on her own. 3. All parts of the relations are very prevelant in my life. I have an inter-racial relationship and within my job there is alot of strain with the intergender relationship. And with dear old dad there is a strong intergenerational relationship. Out of all of these I think that the interracial conflict is the greatest. Within our own school there is a great focus on diversity especially on promoting the minorities. I believe that the promotion of minorities has in many ways in many peoples minds have become reverse in nature and discrimination has turned full circle. I do not think that this racial difference will ever be solved especially on liberal university campuses around our country. Everyone has thier opinion and you cannot satisfy everyone all of the time...

Wed Nov 18 00:18:41 PST 1998

Katherine Kelleher kelle018@csusm.edu responded:

1) In the Salon #6 discussions, I was particularly interested in the interaction between Julie and Rita concerning whether or not Mercedes was a racist. It is brought to mind, what is the definition of a racist? Webster's Dictionary defines racism as, "A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". It would appear, by definition, that a member of one race cannot be a racist toward another member of the same race. What is also important to note is that Mercedes and the immigrants belonged to the same ethnic group. I agree that Mercedes was trying to protect the illegals from being killed like her husband. Calling the INS could have been an earnest attempt to better protect the lives of the immigrants. She probably had little confidence that a lower level of law enforcement was trustworthy since it was a sheriff that was responsible for the death of her husband. 2)Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plan because it is comprehensive, it would not be likely to carry a stigma, and it includes a progressive public rhetoric of social reform. This program would not be directed toward the destitute. It would be comprehensive in that it it would be available to everybody. The stigma that accompanies the idea that people like living on charitable hand-outs would be eliminated. The money would be earned by the participants, and opportunities for advancement to the private sector would be highly probable. Public rhetoric would reflect problems of both the middle and poorer classes. Wilson feels this type of program would provide evidence that joblessness among the poor represents the more extreme form of economic marginality encountered by the majority of the population and is derived from changes in the organization of the economy. Wilson also believes the creation of WPA jobs would produce the kinds of opportunity-enhancing programs that all racial and class backgrounds would support. The employment base in neighborhoods would increase instantaneously, and expansion of earned income tax credit would cause income levels to rise. This increase would lead to higher levels of social organization in ghetto neighborhoods. As people would start working, crime and drug use would diminish. Ghetto-related behavior would no longer be sustained by persistent joblessness. Only a small minority of people would continue to use drugs and abuse alcohol. Most would be ready and willing to work at a steady job. The inclusion of universal health care and day care for children would bring about more interest in low-wage jobs since lack of these programs is a primary reason the poor remain on welfare. Young peoples' preparation for labor in the global economy would be promoted by better educational and training opportunities, and all Americans could share hope by providing our children with a plan of economic stability. 3) In current times there are great strains between every faction related to our current course of study. As the Bible says, "Iniquity shall abound, and the love of many shall wax cold". Inter-gender relations are breaking down. Divorce rates are continually rising, many same-sex relationships are developing, and women are becoming more independent in business and in preferring to have and raise children alone. In the inter-generational realm, parents do not understand or relate to much of the behavior of their children. Peer groups appear to have more influence on children and young adults as is reflected in the prominence of gangs. Moral standards are continuing to decline. Parents feel they are losing all control over the behavior of their children. Youngsters are having babies just to attract the opposite sex, and beyond that they see no meaning to life. Drug use is seen as a normal coping mechanism. Grandparents are increasingly caring for their grandchildren while the parents abandon their children. Communication is breaking down among the different generations because the traditional values, standards, and morals are changing so rapidly. However, inter-racial relations still appear to have the greatest strain. One primary reason is that racial tensions have been prevalent for a longer period of time and to a greater degree. Even with creation of better laws such as the abolishment of slavery and the enactment of Civil Rights, the problems of prejudice and discrimination seem to be making a strong return. With joblessness increasing among African-Americans, it is becoming more doubtful that economic equality will ever be seen. Since mainstream Americans tend to see the disadvantaged as not owning much in terms of property, those who live in projects or do not own expensive cars are going to be forgotten when it is time for voters and policymakers to find new approaches toward equal opportunity. If man judges man by color, or what he owns, or what position he holds and forgets to take into consideration all factors related to lack of opportunity, he certainly is not seeing the whole picture. If people really believe that a person is inherently lazy because he is a certain color, and proceeds to judge his situation, he clearly wants to deny that all men are created equal. If no solutions are created to make opportunities equal for all members of society, decension and division will only get worse. Most people want to have a steady job and a good life. Any person who believes that there are individuals who prefer living in squalor is uninformed. Any person or group that perpetuates the idea that men are not equal and should not be afforded the same opportunities in life because of their color, is diminishing our collective potential to improve.

Wed Nov 18 11:57:24 PST 1998

Rita Danskin lakegrove@aol.com responded:

1) I'd like to address the dialogue between Katherine, Julie and I about whether Mercedes can be racist. I see that by a dictionary definition she cannot be racist, but I believe that she does deny her heritage and by doing that she can become racist. She wants very much to assimilate. As I said in Salon 6, she believed that it was important to give up the ways of the "old country." I think this is also a generational issue. I saw my grandparents from Germany and Poland try to assimilate. They made fun of themselves and other immigrants--they really looked at non-American ways as being backward. I'm sure this was the same thing Mercedes felt. Yet something inside her made her want to help others.

As to Julie's question about why Mercedes called the INS, maybe she trusted the INS more than local authorities. Maybe she believed the INS would simply return the immigrants to Mexico. Her experience with local authorities was that they killed immigrants. I also believe that this was one way of showing her desire to deny her heritage. A true American would call the INS to deal with illegal immigrants and she wanted to be viewed as a true American.

2) Wilson supports the neo-WPA plan because people need to work. This entire book addresses the problems that occur When Work Disappears. It is important for self-esteem for people to work for a living. I wholeheartedly agree that even though it is a more expensive solution, it is the right solution if it is done correctly and if it includes, "...universal health insurance, a child care program, and earned income tax credits..." (234). I'm reminded of the saying, "If you give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, but if you teach a man to fish he'll eat forever."

3) I would say that inter-racial relations cause more strain than either inter-gender or inter-generational. I guess the reason may be that with both inter-gender and inter-generational relationships there already is greater personal knowledge. It is not too often that you hear something like, "I hate old people," or "I hate all men (or women)." If you do hear it, it is usually related to some specific incident and it is a short-term emotional response. However, when someone says, "I hate blacks," or "I hate Mexicans," it goes deeper. There is usually not a personal relationship involved. I think once people get to know each other one-on-one, race becomes transparent. The inter-racial strains are usually based on deep-seated, long-standing prejudice against one group by another. When there is inter-racial "strain," no attempt is even made to have a personal "relationship." I think it all goes back to our discussion of the Declaration of Independence and how our forefathers attempted to create a melting pot. Some people are old and some are young, some are men and some are women, but once you start adding color into that melting pot, things get cloudy. And I do believe that people are much more strongly influenced by skin color, than ethnic background--that's why it was so much easier for the Europeans to assimilate.

Wed Nov 18 23:17:24 PST 1998

Julie Schmidt juls@ix.netcom.com responded:

I agree with Daniel Brown's reponse to Rita Danskin's question regarding whether or not Mercedes was a racist or was she simply try to protect the illegals from getting murderedlike her husband? Daniel said she was not a racist. I agree, after all ( as Katherine mentions here) one cannot really be racist against their own race. I also agree with Daniel that Mercedes was trying to protect her standing in the community. She was a prominent member of society and it seemed her treatment of the illegals was a further attempt to disguise her heritage. 2) Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plans because it would bring work into the neighborhoods that is suited for low-skilled workers (who are very prevalent in these ghetto neighborhoods). Also, the plan would make work available to anyone who wanted it, people would be working for a living rather than collecting welfare, supplemented with the earned income tax credit, the program could lift families who work full-time throughout the year out of poverty. Many of these inner cities are in great need of infrastucture repair, which could be provided through WPA programs. 3) Of these three I think that interracial relations creates the greatest strains. Intergenerational and intergender conflict do exist, but do not seem as prevalent and harmful as interracial conflict. I found it interesting in looking up our "hate mail" assignment, I found no male or female bashing groups, or any hate groups focusing on persons of a certain age. What I did find was many groups whose hatred was directed at another race, the majority of them white supremist groups. The amount of animosity I saw in some of the sites was incredible. Never have I seen that kind of hatred involving sex or age. Also, in the media we hear of the most severe conflicts between races rather than gender or age.

Tue Nov 24 11:09:56 PST 1998

Daniel Brown Brown060@csusm.edu responded:

I would like to quickely respond to Rita Danskins comments on Mercedes' reasoning for calling the INS. I do not agree that a true American would call the INS to return the immigrants back to Mexico. I consider myself a true american and I am not sure if I would call the INS. I have had alot of interaction with the present day INS personnel they are not the saints of the border that many people believe. I really believe that she called the INS to protect her standing in the community. A selfish but real reason. She had worked hard to get there and she did not want to risk that for anyone. She would even sell out her own to make sure that she stays high within the community. Wilson I believe is a traditional liberal democrat. Social programs are the solution to all the worlds problems. The WPA and the New deal programs many econmists believe kept the US in the Depression longer. I see Wilson supportng them becuase it keeps the masses busy feedin g off the government. I do not believe that many people learned life skills participating in government programs. WPA programs were in many ways welfare programs Putting people to work to build trails in National parks only last so long. Where do they go after the trail is built. I believe that the earned income tax credits the Wilson wants would in the end not help the hand that feeds the Ghetto's but make it go broke. Trading dollars with out earningis a hard way to keep a nation afloat.

Fri Dec 11 17:57:53 PST 1998

Debra Taft debnjeff@earthlink.net responded:

1) In the conversation between Rita and Anne I found some of the points very interesting. I agreed with Rita that Mercedes was trying to put her heritage behind her. I believe she acted the way she did because of her interaction with Buddy. The only reason she was provided with opportunity in America was because of her relationship with Buddy. None of the other victims of Wade’s crimes were compensated for their loss. It was Buddy who gave her the money to open her restaurant under the title of widows benifits. I agree that people were expected to give up the way of the old country and that these things (such as language) were looked at as backward. So her desire to only speak English wasn’t an example of her rejecting her heritage. 2) In reading Wilson’s work it appears that he is very much in favor of the underdog. It would stand to reason then that he would be in favor of FDR’s WPA programs. At the time the programs were criticized for their socialist appearance, but in a time when nothing else appeared to help they were an acceptable and successful answer to our nations problem. Wilson see the inner city neighborhoods in much the same light as our nation during the Great Depression. He believes that government involvement is the only solution to bring these troubled neighborhoods back to an acceptable level of employment and standards of living. The problem is the same as it was during the Great Depression. Our country was founded on the notion that too much government involvement is a bad thing, and I agree. If we want to clean up the inner cities than we need to find a way of doing so without bring the government into the middle of it. Take a place like LA for instance. If you want to improve the community you need to create an incentive for big business to come their with new jobs. Education programs need to be put in to place to train individuals to accomplish the new jobs that are available. The problem is the lack of interest that individuals posses regarding improving their own lives. If given the choice between working 9-5 daily for $10 / hr or selling drugs on the street corner, I think it’s safe to say they aren’t going to give up the money they make selling drugs to work hard and make less. Of coarse not everyone in LA sells drugs, but it is the corrupt individuals that prevent new businesses from wanting to expose their business to a high crime neighborhood. If the government was in some way able to create jobs in these communities it would be no different. They would vandalize the job sites and treat it the same way they treat the rest of the city. The problem is that a lot of people feel they do not respect their own community, if they did they would not vandalize the place where they live. If these individuals don’t care about their community than why should anyone try to help. It is the lack of faith that given a chance they could improve their community that prevents us from helping. No one wants to take the time to help them rebuild their community. Wilson’s suggestion to inact the WPA might be the only way to give these people a second chance. This would only work if the people who have spent so much time destroying the community work to help clean it up. 3) Throughout our daily lives we see strains on society. In inter-racial we see strains when Caucasians want to let go of the past, but Africans want to share with their children what happened to their ancestors. You can’t say that either group is wrong, both actions make perfect sense. I wish we could all just forget what happened in the past and start over from scratch, but we can’t. Unfortunately there are still Caucasians out there that believe that they are better than another individual based on the color of their skin. Skin color makes up .1% of our genetic makeup. That is a very small percentage of difference between Caucasians and Africans to think either one of us is better than the other. Of course their are other aspects of these two groups that are different, but these are cultural differences, that same way Caucasians are different from Asians for Europeans in culture. There is a strain because some individuals from both groups feel there is a need to think they are better than the other. Inter-gender strains are becoming stronger as more woman are entering higher level positions in the workplace. For years the women’s place was in the home barefoot and pregnant, taking care of her husband. Times have changed, now the woman doesn’t even stay home very long after child birth. There are two strains that can be felt here. The first is the obvious strain between the male and female. In some cases today women make more money than their husband. This can cause a serious distortion of the male ego. For years it has been thought that the man should make more than the woman and you weren’t much of a man if your wife made more than you. This is very wrong. As a woman I don’t think it should matter who makes more money, the most important thing should be the family. If no one is throwing it in your face that you make less than just be happy that as a unit the two are successful. The second is the strain between woman. There are still woman out there who believe in staying home and raising a family, and taking care of their husband. These woman are made to feel inferior to the working woman. It is a personal choice to stay home with you children and no one should make a person question that choice. The inter-gender strain on woman is enormous and seems to be growing everyday. With a very large generation gap in our world inter-generational strains are inevitable. Examples of this would be grandparents and even some parents having problems with the sexuality of the youth in society. Our grandparents came from a generation were there was very little incidence of premarital sex (and even some of our parents fall under this category). It is issues like this one that makes it very difficult for members of different generations to relate to one another. I can’t imagine being in a family with very old school, traditional thoughts about how life works. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely think my parents had traditional values, but they also understood that the world is a very different place than it was when they were young. The individuals must understand and respect the differences between them order to better understand eachother.

Fri Dec 11 17:59:33 PST 1998

Debra Taft debnjeff@earthlink.net responded:

1) I don’t agree with Katherine regarding the reasoning Mercedes called INS. If my husband was killed by a law enforcement officer I don’t think I would call law enforcement officers to protect illegal immigrants. Rather than calling the authorities I think I would try to protect these individuals by helping them to achieve their freedom in America. 2) I agree that the WPA would create many jobs across the board. However, I don’t agree that this program would prevent drug and alcohol abuse. Even in affluent neighborhoods there is drug and alcohol abuse, so to say the lack of unemployment would reduce this would be incorrect. 3) I agree with her example of inter-gender relations. Woman becoming more independent is a strain on gender relations. Also her example for inter-generational strains between parents and children is very true. Parents find it difficult to relate to their children and their behavior.