Salon #7a: Please stay in your sections for this 7th Salon.  Refer back to Salon 6 if you need to know which section you are in.

First, I want to say how interesting I found your reactions both to the film Lonestar and to the Wilson questions.  I also thought that students responding to other students for the most part went very well.  So we will try this again this week. 

Second, we are running a little late, but there is so much material to process that it seems worthwhile to devote more time to delving deeper into what we are discussing.  So you should receive Salon #7 by Thursday, Nov. 12 and responses to this Salon #7should be in by Wednesday, Nov. 18.

Third, there will be three parts to this Salon, be sure that you address each of them. 

Fourth, let me add here that I have received so many hate mail web sites from you that I am getting our program secretary to develop a comprehensive list and that will be distributed to you by e-mail next week and form one of the questions for the second paper.

Mini-lecture for Salon #7:

We have now covered a lot of ground in trying to think about "inequality" in the American context.  Many of you stated that "Lonestar" addressed a very broad range of "inequality" issues. Note that the film both focused on inter-racial (e.g., the soldier who finds the skeleton who wants to marry Priscilla; Otis and Hollis or Otis and Buddy; Sam and Pilar) and intra-racial relationships (e.g., Otis and Del, Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit, Mercedes and her Latino employees).  It focused on inter-gender (e.g., Sam and Pilar, Sam and his ex-wife Bunny; Buddy and Mercedes, Otis and the woman he left his wife for) and on intra-gender (e.g., Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit; Pilar and daughter; Hollis and Charlie Wade).  It focused on inter-generational (e.g., Buddy and Sam, Mercedes and Pilar and Pilar's son, Otis and Del and his son) and intra-generational (e.g., Buddy and Hollis and Otis and Charlie, Sam and Pilar and Bunny).  There are ties and strains across all forms of these interpersonal relationships.  In some cases the ties seem stronger than the strains, in some cases the strains seem stronger than the bonds.

A few students mentioned that they thought that some aspects of "Lonestar" seemed to take a patriarchical view in which the man's perspective is set up as more important than the woman's--the man's behaviors and actions are more accepted and considered more justifiable than the woman's.  The film was written and directed by a man (John Sayles) so it was at some level clearly a man's point of view.   For those of you who saw the film, Beloved, there was a sense that what was selected to be shown in the film was very much the women's stories and less the story of Paul D., the main male character.  This is a perspective that it is good to keep in mind whatever one is reading or viewing.

We have been considering the position of African Americans in American society through a broad range of the materials we've looked at this term:  Beloved, Lonestar, Wilson's: When Work Disappears.  We've been discussing why blacks in America have had a struggle to move towards equal status.  Note the different situations in which we've viewed American blacks:  under slavery and coping with their situations after slavery (Beloved), as a small minority in a Texas border town where Latinos are the major "minority" group, and in the "ghettos" of Chicago which are largely segregated.  Each of these social contexts places blacks in an "unequal" position--but there are very interesting differences in the types of access to and opportunity for success.

Parent/child relations are very central to the development of human society.  Without a real bond to one's adult caretakers' (probably most critically to one's mother) a child cannot develop a sense of social commitment, of a link to a broader human community.  From the parent's perspective, the tie to a child is very intense.   There is a sense of needing to assume responsibility to bring the child into the human community, to nurture the child to ultimately replace oneself in human society.   There may be a biological dimension to this since one sees many aspects of this behavior in various animal species. 

Wilson's argument is that if the family cannot provide the economic and social foundation for their children, then the children may be vulnerable to all sorts of anti-social outcomes.  Here is where various types of welfare programs, early education programs, and other types of human service organizations and programs can help to fill the gaps that families (and mothers) in poverty cannot easily supply.  Yet Wilson argues that many who live in urban ghettos are not necessarily defeated and do not represent the "media" image of poor ghetto residents.

You should keep in mind that social relations and racial and gender interrelations of all sorts are nuanced.  They aren't always exactly one thing or another.  This complexity is clearly presented in Wilson's study of black ghettos in Chicago and in the film "Lonestar."  One might say that there may be tendencies or pressures in a certain direction, but social relations and social structures (the occupational structure,  income distributions, family structures) are always undergoing change and the same situation can appear very different to different individuals.

One of the qualities that I hope that you will carry away from this course is the complexity of American society and the need to keep one's perspectives flexible so that you can see the same situation from different vantage points.   Naturally, each of us have certain values and beliefs that we use in a way as filters through which we see things and interpret their meanings.  But to think carefully about the subject of inequality, we do need to try to take the perspectives of others to just try to have some sense of what a social position, a social situation would be like were we to have to handle it.  This also helps us to form the "looking glass self" which the famous sociologist George Herbert Mead described in which one looks at oneself as others might view one.

You have three assignments in Salon 7:

(1) Returning to the Salon 6 (a, b, c, or d sections) discussions of "Lonestar," take one of the two-way interactions of two students in YOUR section (you could be one of those students) and indicate how the second student responded to the first student's answer.  Now you join this conversation by adding a third response to this question relating to both the first and the second students' discussions. (Be sure to send your response to the correct Salon section:  7a or 7b or 7c or 7d--to whichever one you have been assigned.)

(2) Why does Wilson support the neo-WPA  jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city? (WPA stands for Works Progress Administration which was set up during the Great Depression in the 1930s as a way to provide jobs--such as building national parks, etc. for the unemployed.)

(3) Let's return to my mini-lecture discussion about "strains and ties."  On the basis of what you've been exposed to this semester in terms of all aspects of this course, which relations appear to you to create the greatest "strains" -- inter-racial?  inter-gender? or inter-generational?

Finally: if you've seen the film Beloved, what were your reactions to it?   How well did it depict the book?

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Salon #7 Responses  

GC garrett@mailhost1... responded:

Test

Sun Nov 15 20:35:32 PST 1998

Andrew Fritzinger latigo@pe.net responded:

I am responding to Louise's response to a question Kathy posed, basically asking " where does equality fit into the equation ", Louise basically said that it doesn't fit in because people hold too many racist tendencies within themselves and that they are contradictory, saying and believing 2 different things. I have to agree with Louise's argument. I believe that our nation continues to hold to much weight on race and racial issues. Either in furthering racism or talking about the issue to much, sort of " riding the horse till it's dead ". I feel this problem could be a major factor in bringing this country down, judging on how we focus on it and yet it continues to be a problem, that I feel is a major symptom of an extremely destructive social problem. There is some hope, sweeping change may be unrealistic and ideological but maybe society can still change some basic fundemental symptoms of racial conflict,this may start a turnaround. An example would be to focus on racial equality in employment. That alone could bring radical positive change because work is one's source of not only income but accomplishment. II. From Wilson's book. Wilson supports WPA jobs because the can provide broad sweeping employment opportunities for the impoverished. These jobs would also be jobs that would make a difference, like rebuilding bridges or cleaning up neighborhoods. People could then advance into the private sector with this experience under there belt. Primarily it would give the impovershed a chance and a feeling of accomplishment. These jobs would replace the low-skilled labor that has been lost in recent decades. III. Which type of strain is the strongest? According to our readings and what we have been exposed to I feel that inter-racial strains are the strongest. First based on the fact that racial divisions resulted in slavery in the 19th century. It seems to still be a focus in the 20th with official segregation up until the 1960's. Today I still see two things that add to racial tension. One is great economic differences between races and secondly massive " subjective segregation " (ie not official but existing) in our cities. Not to stray from the point but I feel in reality the major strain is inter-gender, I know the focus in this class has been on racial problems but let me just say this. With the exception of strong married couples it seems that men and women harbor enormous distrust for each other. I don't want to stray to much but basically , except for those few strong relationships,the distrust in today's society is so bad that men and women cannot express their true feelings to each other.

Wed Nov 18 20:43:33 PST 1998

Kathy Johnson eric21@home.com responded:

(1) One of my questions, inter-gender in nature, was that at the end of the film, it comes out that due to Buddy Deeds having an affair with Pilar's mother, that Sam Deeds and Pilar are actually half-brother and sister - and yet, not knowing until the end of the film of their biological relationship, they have always felt this sexual and spiritual attraction for each other. One of the few taboos left in our society is that of brother and sister having sexual relations. In the case of Sam and Pilar, how can, or cannot their relationship be justified? Beth Carson responded to my question by stating "she had thought a lot about this question. These people have spent most of their adult lives feeling connected to each other even when they were apart. I think the main feeling I had about it was that the choice to stay together would have been drastically different if it had been common knowledge among the townspeople about the affair between Mercedes and Buddy. The pressure of staying within the norms and confines of society would bring shame and disgrace to their relationship. I really don't feel it is justified because whether they love each other or not does not change the fact that they have the same father." My comments to this dialogue of my question and Beth's response are that basically, I agree with Beth's analysis as it really gets to the "heart" of the matter. She brings up very good points regarding following the norms and confines of society, but I would still come with a different reaction, as I feel it can be justified. One thing that comes to mind is how we are socialized into what is acceptable for intimate relationships - that, for example, second cousins can have such a relationship, but first cousins or closer cannot in many states. Yet, I have read that in ancient Egypt that brothers and sisters of the Pharaoh's family were encouraged to marry each other in order for the "high-born" to carry on the royal line. Taking each case on an individual basis, there can be no concern in Pilar and Sam's situation about passing on any possible genetic defects, as Pilar cannot have any more children. Also, I feel that the type of love they have found and held for each other all their lives is pretty rare, and it would be a far more serious omission for them to deny their love and not act on it regardless of the social norms and mores in effect. (2) Wilson in When Work Disappears lists three proposals to provide legitimate jobs (not welfare) for less skilled, disadvantaged workers, which include: (a) the creation of public-sector infrastructure maintenance jobs proposed by Edward Regan, (b) public service minimum wage jobs for low-skilled workers proposed by Sheldon Danziger and Peter Gottschalk, and (c) a neo-WPA type job which combines aspects of the first two proposed by Mickey Kaus. It is Wilson's belief that the neo-WPA program is the best and most comprehensive. His reasons for supporting this program are as follows. This program would provide useful public jobs at wages slightly below the minimum wage and available to everyone - men and women. "The low wage itself would guarantee that those who took the jobs would be those who needed them while preserving the incentive to look for better work in the private sector. The jobs themselves would provide infrastructure maintenance needed to maintain the accomplishments of the original WPA program from the FDR era such as road and bridge maintenance, trash pick-up, playground and school improvements along with jobs providing services such as nurse's aides, clerks and cooks. This would be a win-win situation where low-skilled individuals would find jobs and gain experience with the incentive to locate higher paying jobs in the private sector and everyone benefiting from much needed public maintenance, improvements and services. (3) An argument could be made for all of these three types of relations causing great strain. However, I believe that relations that are inter-racial in nature cause the greatest stress and strain. For example, if a person due to racial discrimination cannot achieve a decent standards of living, a fair chance at nurturing, safety in one's neighborhood, or equal opportunities for education and employment, as shown in both "The Culture of Inequality" and "When Work Disappears", then one's quality of life is in a downward spiral with all the consequences of stress and strain that would follow - such as anger, depression and frustration,

Thu Nov 19 00:14:09 PST 1998

Sara Rivera sarariv@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

I am responding to the following exchange: Louise Basford questioned Mercedez negative attitude towards men. Estella Gallagher responded by expressing that Mercedes was this way because of the pain she had endured in her life caused by men. Also, she had been brought up with traditional values that she might have been resenting. Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city because,a higher proportion of workers with few skills and little or no work experience would be employed. Also, the program would provide more job opportunities for workers in high-jobless inner-city ghetto neighborhoods. The program would provide immediate employment opportunities for low skilled workers. Wilson feels that the program would promote social, and economic improvements benefitting all groups in society not just the disadvantage groups. He states that this is consistent with his argument that the joblessness of the poor, represents the more extreme form of economic marginality experienced by large segment of the population stemming form changes in economic organization, and global economy. I found both, the question and response interesting. Although, I feel that Mercedes was not just negative towards men. She was negative about everything! She did not smile once in that entire movie. Her character was very bitter! As far as her being resentful of her traditional values - Maybe? I don't feel that this was at the forefront of her bitterness. Her role of a successfull bussiness woman is not a traditional role for a latina brought up with traditional values. Yet, that was the one thing she seemed to be proud of - it was the one thing that allowed her to have power and respect in the community, along with a sense of accomplishment. This is very apparent in her attitude, there is a particular scene in the movie when one of her employees, a young Mexican man,is admirering her car and compliments her on it. What struck me about Mercede's character was that she was a racist against her own people and culture. Being a Latin female myself, my first impression of Mercedes was that she was a sell out. But, upon further speculation her armour of bitterness and lack of sympathy was perhaps a self defense mechanism that helped her survive the racist male dominated environment she lived in. She took to heart the old motto "If you can't beat them join them!" Personally for me Mercede's charachter was the most intriguing and the one that I dwelt on the most. At first, she really ticked me off and towards the end of the movie I really felt sorry for her. For she was a victim in many ways. First, she really bought into dominant groups beliefs that the white man was superior and she could never be anything but second best! This belief was reinforced by her relationship with Buddy Deeds in which again she was second best. She was not good enough to be his wife but she was good enough to be his misstress. I think this sense of inferiority would make anybody bitter. Also, I noticed how she would keep telling her young employee to speak in English. I feel that her message to the young man was that in order to make it on this side you had to assimilate and one of the ways to do this was to learn the language.

Thu Nov 19 00:28:53 PST 1998

Sara Rivera sarariv@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

I am sorry everyone- I dont know what happened but the second part of my answer cut into the first. The Wilson piece was suppose to be at the end.

Thu Nov 19 08:14:37 PST 1998

Louise Basford jlbasford@earthlink.net responded:

1) I chose to discuss Estella's response to Kathy Johnson's, how that the "Structure of opportunity caters more to the middle class, educated individuals." Estella seemed to agree with Kathy's response, as I would have to also. I agree that the middle class does get pampered more than the lower class. But why is this? Well, look at the lower class individuals on the whole. They are into drugs, gangs etc. How would be willing to help them get a better education if they are not willing to try to achieve higher goals? The middle class is worth more of their time. They are always striving to do better. They know they need a better education to achieve more goals in their future. 2) Wilson supports the Neo-WPA because he feels that in order for a family to survive, they need these programs. He states that, "In order to provide economic and social foundation for their family, then these welfare programs will help fill in the gap that families in poverty cannot easily supply." Therefore, these families, Wilson argues, will benefit our families as well as our economy, creating more jobs for them, and providing other facilities. An example, to allow women to work, providing daycare’s for them, so they can leave their children and go to work. 3) The relationship that I think creates the greatest strain would have to be inter-generation. There are so many family issues that go on in this world. This is where we need to focus our biggest strains, to avoid the broken homes, the divorce, violence, gangs etc. This strain needs to be strong to keep the close knit families together.

Thu Nov 19 17:58:59 PST 1998

Beth Carson BCarson222@aol.com responded:

I am responding to a statement by Andrew in response to Louise Basford who talked about how Otis Payne was mayor of Darktown. Andrew's comment was that "Otis basically ran the only African-American club in the town (except for an insignificant military club as described by his son). This was probably true in the days of Charlie Wade when the world was alot bigger." My comment is I wonder if Otis was supposed to be proud of this title? I totally agree with Andrew, Otis was the "Mayor of Darktown" because he was the prominent African American in the community, and it appeared that he ran the only establishement in town where black people could go to relax and have fun. The majority of his customers were black, he ran the club, thereby he was "the mayor of darktown." The greatest strains in our society I feel are inter-racial. White women are moving closer to equal status with white men (although they are not yet even close), but other races are still struggling for an equal position. Racial conflicts have been arising in our society since before our forefathers signed the Declaration of Independence. Slavery, segregation, racial tension, marches, fights for equality, these things have existed in the history of our country and in many ways our nation is still segregated. Look at the races of the children in poor inner city schools, compare that to the racial composition of the suburb public schools. Examine pay charts that break down and compare everyone elses wages to what the white man makes. The biggest strain between races seems to be economic, but that in turn effects opportunities for success. I agree with Andrew that this is an extremely destructive problem in our society. But I don't see an end in sight. Even with improved economic equality, there will always be idiots who consider themselves superior just because of the color of the skin they were born with.

Thu Nov 19 18:02:59 PST 1998

Britton Hill hillsrus@ix.netcom.com responded:

(1)I am also responding to Louise's question of why Mercedez was so negative towards men. First I agree with both Estella and Sara's answers. Personaly I think her negative attitude towards men is related mostly to her expieriences with men. I think she felt let down by her own husband when he was killed. Then Buddy Deeds let her down when he would not leave his wife eventhough he claimed to love Mercedez. Finnaly, any trust she had in men was probably finally destroyed when Pilar's husband left her. (2) Wilson supports the neo-WPA program because it will help restore and maintain America's infrastructure. It will offer a large number of low skilled, non-experienced workers as well as displaced middle class workers with immediate employment thus supportting American's of all racial and social classes. This program should also have a positve impact on the social orginzation of ghetto neighborhoods helping in the long run to break the cycle of joblessness. (3) I would say that the inter-racial strains and the inter-gender strains are very close. In today's world as it becomes more of a global society with the growth of the global economy, racial strains will become less. However inter-gender could rise with the ever changing roles of the male and female.

Fri Nov 20 23:29:26 PST 1998

Kathy Johnson eric21@home.com responded:

(4) If you've seen the film Beloved, what were your reactions to it, and how well did it depict the book? I just got back home from seeing the film "Beloved" down in San Diego. There were only about 12 people seeing the movie. After it was over I heard comments such as "This is really dumb" or "That was weird" or "I didn't understand it". Also the critics had really given it a poor rating. Beyond that, Oprah Winfrey was not how I had pictured Sethe in my mind. Perhaps the critics and many watching the movie had not read the book which would be pretty important in making sense of the movie. Nevertheless, I found the movie to be very good. Actually, seeing the movie helped to flesh out the book. The movie followed the book pretty faithfully. Some parts were left out, particularly one of my favorite scenes in the book where Sethe, Denver and Beloved went ice skating with one pair of old skates and had a marvelous time skating, falling down and laughing. The movie was definitely from a woman's perspective. Actually the book, while mostly from a woman's perspective, spent quite a bit of time on where Paul D. was coming from as well. The use of color was minimal, and when used was used effectively - Mama Sugg's quilt with the one patch of color - orange, and all the ribbons used to decorate and liven up the interior of the house. The movie made use of flashbacks and emphasized the interpretation of Beloved being Sethe's daughter returned as a young adult the same age as the "crawling already" baby would have been had she lived. Using that interpretation and going through the "birth" (Sethe emptying her bladder at first sight of the adult Beloved) and Beloved acting as a baby in an adult body, was to an extent healing for Sethe but nearly re-possessed her, and also served as a catalyst for Denver to overcome her fears and venture out into the world. The movie showed the emotional effects of slavery in an understated, but still clear manner. I think the film was really well done.

Sat Nov 21 12:42:40 PST 1998

carol schirm schir001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. Responding to both Britton Hill and Kathy Johnson who were responding to my response that while there is a sort of nostalgia for Mexico, may people were shown crossing the border. Both responded that the persons crossing the border were doing so for economic reasons and not running from their cultural heritage which they felt nostalgic about. I agreee. Here is my question to you, what is the difference economically those locked in the ghetto in Chicago and those crossing the border from Mexico. From the book "The Culture of Inequality", both groups have distinguishable traits which people, like Charlie Wade, can rally against to make himself more powerful and look better. Unfortunately, it takes people, like Buddy Deeds, to look past the culturally dominate pattern of response and to see the real issues. From the book, and film, "Beloved", I got that the author felt there is more to this life than surface, that there might be a spiritual connection between people. If this is the case then Sam and Pilar were always connected. Unfortunately, it would seem since this connection was not allowed a more "normal" route of expresion, that of sister and brother, that a more questional relationship developed. I can't necessarily agree with Beth Carson who stated the relationship, as defined in the movie, was wrong. I think people should be judged by how they respond to what they know. I'm not sure that Sam and Pilar's situation was their "sin" or the "sin" of their parents generation who refused to tell them the truth. 2. The WPA is favored in the book "When Work Disappears" as a step towards self reliance. This system brings service jobs into a jobless area. The pay is minimal, which is the inducement to have companies risk being in the area. The payoff of the program is the education of a population into the ecomomic culture. How to dress, how to interview, what to do with a paycheck and how to consistently show up for a job. This teaches the present generation and the future generation who uses their parents as a model as to how to fit into the system. The parks and recreational facilities are to have the same impact in the ghetto that they do in middle class and upper middle class neighborhood (although there parts, not golf courses). 3. One of the most significant "strain" would be between parent and child (or what seems to be in this portion of history in the United States because of the absence of parents), most significant mentor. The role children as they grow into adulthood is so dependent on what is seen and felt as they grow.