Salon #7a: Please stay in your sections for this 7th Salon.  Refer back to Salon 6 if you need to know which section you are in.

First, I want to say how interesting I found your reactions both to the film Lonestar and to the Wilson questions.  I also thought that students responding to other students for the most part went very well.  So we will try this again this week. 

Second, we are running a little late, but there is so much material to process that it seems worthwhile to devote more time to delving deeper into what we are discussing.  So you should receive Salon #7 by Thursday, Nov. 12 and responses to this Salon #7should be in by Wednesday, Nov. 18.

Third, there will be three parts to this Salon, be sure that you address each of them. 

Fourth, let me add here that I have received so many hate mail web sites from you that I am getting our program secretary to develop a comprehensive list and that will be distributed to you by e-mail next week and form one of the questions for the second paper.

Mini-lecture for Salon #7:

We have now covered a lot of ground in trying to think about "inequality" in the American context.  Many of you stated that "Lonestar" addressed a very broad range of "inequality" issues. Note that the film both focused on inter-racial (e.g., the soldier who finds the skeleton who wants to marry Priscilla; Otis and Hollis or Otis and Buddy; Sam and Pilar) and intra-racial relationships (e.g., Otis and Del, Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit, Mercedes and her Latino employees).  It focused on inter-gender (e.g., Sam and Pilar, Sam and his ex-wife Bunny; Buddy and Mercedes, Otis and the woman he left his wife for) and on intra-gender (e.g., Priscilla and the young African-American female recruit; Pilar and daughter; Hollis and Charlie Wade).  It focused on inter-generational (e.g., Buddy and Sam, Mercedes and Pilar and Pilar's son, Otis and Del and his son) and intra-generational (e.g., Buddy and Hollis and Otis and Charlie, Sam and Pilar and Bunny).  There are ties and strains across all forms of these interpersonal relationships.  In some cases the ties seem stronger than the strains, in some cases the strains seem stronger than the bonds.

A few students mentioned that they thought that some aspects of "Lonestar" seemed to take a patriarchical view in which the man's perspective is set up as more important than the woman's--the man's behaviors and actions are more accepted and considered more justifiable than the woman's.  The film was written and directed by a man (John Sayles) so it was at some level clearly a man's point of view.   For those of you who saw the film, Beloved, there was a sense that what was selected to be shown in the film was very much the women's stories and less the story of Paul D., the main male character.  This is a perspective that it is good to keep in mind whatever one is reading or viewing.

We have been considering the position of African Americans in American society through a broad range of the materials we've looked at this term:  Beloved, Lonestar, Wilson's: When Work Disappears.  We've been discussing why blacks in America have had a struggle to move towards equal status.  Note the different situations in which we've viewed American blacks:  under slavery and coping with their situations after slavery (Beloved), as a small minority in a Texas border town where Latinos are the major "minority" group, and in the "ghettos" of Chicago which are largely segregated.  Each of these social contexts places blacks in an "unequal" position--but there are very interesting differences in the types of access to and opportunity for success.

Parent/child relations are very central to the development of human society.  Without a real bond to one's adult caretakers' (probably most critically to one's mother) a child cannot develop a sense of social commitment, of a link to a broader human community.  From the parent's perspective, the tie to a child is very intense.   There is a sense of needing to assume responsibility to bring the child into the human community, to nurture the child to ultimately replace oneself in human society.   There may be a biological dimension to this since one sees many aspects of this behavior in various animal species. 

Wilson's argument is that if the family cannot provide the economic and social foundation for their children, then the children may be vulnerable to all sorts of anti-social outcomes.  Here is where various types of welfare programs, early education programs, and other types of human service organizations and programs can help to fill the gaps that families (and mothers) in poverty cannot easily supply.  Yet Wilson argues that many who live in urban ghettos are not necessarily defeated and do not represent the "media" image of poor ghetto residents.

You should keep in mind that social relations and racial and gender interrelations of all sorts are nuanced.  They aren't always exactly one thing or another.  This complexity is clearly presented in Wilson's study of black ghettos in Chicago and in the film "Lonestar."  One might say that there may be tendencies or pressures in a certain direction, but social relations and social structures (the occupational structure,  income distributions, family structures) are always undergoing change and the same situation can appear very different to different individuals.

One of the qualities that I hope that you will carry away from this course is the complexity of American society and the need to keep one's perspectives flexible so that you can see the same situation from different vantage points.   Naturally, each of us have certain values and beliefs that we use in a way as filters through which we see things and interpret their meanings.  But to think carefully about the subject of inequality, we do need to try to take the perspectives of others to just try to have some sense of what a social position, a social situation would be like were we to have to handle it.  This also helps us to form the "looking glass self" which the famous sociologist George Herbert Mead described in which one looks at oneself as others might view one.

You have three assignments in Salon 7:

(1) Returning to the Salon 6 (a, b, c, or d sections) discussions of "Lonestar," take one of the two-way interactions of two students in YOUR section (you could be one of those students) and indicate how the second student responded to the first student's answer.  Now you join this conversation by adding a third response to this question relating to both the first and the second students' discussions. (Be sure to send your response to the correct Salon section:  7a or 7b or 7c or 7d--to whichever one you have been assigned.)

(2) Why does Wilson support the neo-WPA  jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city? (WPA stands for Works Progress Administration which was set up during the Great Depression in the 1930s as a way to provide jobs--such as building national parks, etc. for the unemployed.)

(3) Let's return to my mini-lecture discussion about "strains and ties."  On the basis of what you've been exposed to this semester in terms of all aspects of this course, which relations appear to you to create the greatest "strains" -- inter-racial?  inter-gender? or inter-generational?

Finally: if you've seen the film Beloved, what were your reactions to it?   How well did it depict the book?

Enter your comments below (Don't forget to submit):

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Salon #7 Responses  

Garrett garrett@... responded:

Testing

Sat Nov 14 09:12:55 PST 1998

Mary Meredith pbjs@lasercom.net responded:

Good morning group a...I was glad to get the assignment to respond back about the discusssion of Lonestar. There are so many interesting "layers" to this film. 1.) My first question (inter ethnic) about Sheriff Wade and the power he had as the "white" Sheriff was answered by several classmates who offered the same answer I came up with...Sally and Anthony (thanks for the e-mail Anthony) both thought the fact that he was white made his authority over the Mexican population magnified. Shannon responded with that she thought his power was based in the fact that he was white. I think this was a good perspective....being that he grew up as a white boy and became the Sheriff later...certainly the position followed much later than the development of his prejudices. The second question is about the role that Mercedes played in this film. Like Elise, I too, was intrigued by the contradicting messages from and about Mercedes. (The "speed-dial" scene where she reported some incoming illegal immigrants got "under my skin"...especially since that was her own story.) Shannon thought she acted the way she did because she was trying to assimilate into the American culture...Jeff thought she was attempting to distance herself from her past. I think they both have good points and am inclined to believe that a combination of these two explanations is fair to explain Mercedes actions. (It was clear to Mercedes that Mexicans were the under-class and she didn't want to be there.) 2.) Wilson clearly supports Kaus' neo-WPA job plan. His argument is very strong and based on historical facts and current trends. He outlined the gains made by the original WPA under FDR and stressed that the implementation of this type of a program would have to be administered by the federal government to work. The pros include: 1. It would be available to anyone who wants to work. 2. The less-than minimum wage would guarantee that only the needy would take those jobs. 3. At the same time, it would not carry the stigma of being a "cash dole". 4. Jobs would be created that would upgrade our environments/cities. 5. The jobs would not be jobs that compete with current private sector jobs. In short, it would address the problem of "the disappearance of work in the inner-city ghetto" and "reduce the liklihood that a new generation of joblessw workers would be produced from the youngsters now in school and preschool" (p. 238). 3.) The issue of the greatest "strains" in relationships is hard to answer because of the objective nature of relationships. The key for me in the mini lecture was the statement, "In some cases the ties seem stronger than the strains, and in some cases the strains seem stronger than the bonds." The importance of the parent/child bond was also discussed. By experience and observation, I can wholeheartedly agree with the importance of this bond (as I believe it is the strongest bond.) Because this bond is so strong, we are more vulnerable to these inter-generational relationships and "feel" the strains in these relationships more on an emotional level.

Mon Nov 16 07:20:00 PST 1998

Christina Glady glady001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

In responce to Mary's responce to Shannon's question. Mary explained how Mercedes insisted that the immigrants speak English and she would call immigration on them because she had a rough life and "she became hardened by life's experiences. I agree with this. Mercedes had a rough life and did not want the immigrants to come over here and think that there life was going to be easy. Mercedes worked hard to get where she was and she overcame many obsticles like town gossip. She wanted them to work as hard as she did to become "Americanized". In responce to Shannon's responce from Mary's questin. She said that Wade not only abused his power because he was white, but also because he lived in a small town. I agree with that. When you live in a small town everybody knows everybody and they know who is ranking. He was white in a town where a lot of people seemed to immigrate to. So right then he had more power. He used his power poorly. He was cruel and took advantage of people. One reason that Wilson supports the WPA job plan is because it will “benefit the economy by creating jobs, particular for the relatively unskilled and by raising productivity there by contributing to long term economic growth.”(pg 226) Wilson knows that a lot of people in the inner cities are unskilled so creating more jobs for unskilled workers would be beneficial. Not only will they be giving people jobs, but they will be fixing the city too. “$ 1 billion spent on road maintenance will directly generate 25, 000 jobs and indirectly put 15, 000 people to work”(pg 226) The jobs would be available to everyone to everyone. There would be no discrimination. Men, Women , Married or single, mothers or fathers; everyone would have the chance to obtain a job. “It wouldn’t even be necessary to limit the public jobs to the poor”(pg 230) Every person would have the opportunity to work. Kau’s explains that if women work then they will need to provide day care for them. The government would have to provide daycare s the women could work. “With a neo WPA maintaining highways, schools, playgrounds and subways with libraries open every evening and city streets cleaned twice a day, we would have a common life more people would find worth reclaiming.” (pg 231) On page 233 Kaus explains that a WPA style jobs program will not be cheap. In the short run it is less expensive to give people cash for welfare than it is to create public jobs” (pg 233) It may cost more money, but allowing the people to work will give the chance to learn a skill and in the long run they will gain self confidence in themselves. On page 235 they talk about the jobs being spread out to more areas then just the inner cities. They feel that jobs should be spread out. Wilson agrees with the WPA plan because it allows inner city people to get jobs. They would learn a skill and they would also be building up their neighborhoods. They would be able to achieve a lot. When you look at which thing has the biggest strain it really matters what your back ground is and where you are talking about. For instance i may think that the gender thing is the biggest strain. I am a female living in southern California. At work I notice that the men are treated better then the women and the men do not work as hard. They get away with more then the females. Being female has many strains. For instance women do not make as much money as males to in the corporate world. A women makes $. 65 for every $1.00 that a man makes. That is a strain. They may have the same job, but women make a lot less so that could be a strain. If you were African American and lived down south then you would feel a strain. Down there people do not see everyone as being equal. Even here many minorities are treated poorly. They do not get the same respect that the majority gets so that could be looked at as a strain. I think that each person has to think about their own strains. Each person has their own story to tell and they will see a strain in a different way. For me I see the biggest strain being inter gender. Being a women I do not see that I have the same chances for success that males have.

Wed Nov 18 20:08:47 PST 1998

Bobbi Jones jnzn@mailexcite.com responded:

1 AND 3. Hate to confuse everyone, but while working on questions no. 1 & 3, I noticed that they related well with each other...therefore I am responding to both (which relations appear to have the greatest strains and respond to the other's students initial viewpoint examinations of other members of the group) together. HERE GOES... The strains that appears to have the greatest influence on American culture, in my opinion, is the ones that relate from inter-generational relationships. I have always been taught that the struggles of the last generation should not be forgotten. There is an old proverb that states that "you cannot know where you are going, unless you can understand from whence you came." There is a lot of useful insight to be gained from those who struggled before us. And it is this insight that can make our journeys that much easier. Consider the viewpoint shared by Sally Fuentes in Salon 6a. In her examination of the relationship between Gen. Payne and his son, Payne's dominant unrelenting nature benefits his son by pre-exposing him to a diligent work ethic. Payne exemplifies the Booker T. Washington approach to success: Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, i.e. don't wait for a hand-out, but rather excel at the white man's own game. Then you will earn respect. Sally stated that Payne "pushes his son to succeed. . .[because] Payne's generation. . . have experienced oppression to the extremes." Therefore his 'pushing' is his way of preparing his son for "forthcoming racisms" that will confront him as he continues to live. Jeff Blasford (Salon 6a) also notes this 'generational push' for success in his examination of the relationship between Priscilla and the female recruit. "The lieutenant was pushing the girl harder our of concern for her future." I believe that this inter-generational push could also be seen in Mercedes' treatment of Pilar. Although Mercedes had 'familial' reasons for keeping Sam and Pilar apart, her insistence that Pilar date another white male (andy other white male) was obvious. She clearly disapproved of Pilar's deceased husband, refering to him as a "greasy" Mexican. Despite the level of racism that her actions suggested, Mercedes understod that Pilar's position as a Latina in that town would be greatly improved (via accessiblity to higher mobility) if she were associated with a white male. Plus the children conceived through this type of union would be lighter than both Mercedes and Pilar, thus adding to their level of attractiveness in this anti-Mexican Texan society. Even today many marriages are coerced, pushed together based on the social status and/or economics of the families to be united. No one wants to associated with negative stereotypes which is why inter-racial couples receive so much criticism (as well as inter-faith marriages). 2. Wilson supports the neo-WPA jobs plan as a way to address the problems of joblessness in the inner city because of the longevity provided by such types of infrastructure maintenance-created positions. Rather than hire an outside contracting agency to create a new road (a "one-time deal," if you will), this plan would create a staff of workers (who learned their trade on the job) to constantly maintain and update the county roads. These neo-WPA job would include everyone (not just former welfare recipients who's aid is cut off and have no other options). The wages would be low (Wilson states that they are lower than minimum wage, is that legal?) but that this lack of high income would serve two purposes: first, it will inspire those with these neo-WPA jobs, to improve their skills (give them goals, persay) to find a higher paying job, while also ensuring those that have seemingly no job opportunites due to lack of skill/education access to a job that is provides hands-on learning. It is a way to inspire hope, while providing minimal wages. It ensures that dignity is retained, rent is paid, and that individuals benefit from employment by being self-reliant. It raises hope. Since this job is not attached to transitional welfare, as suggested and later approved by Clinton, the chances of this type of program carrying a stigma is relatively low since all Americans (not just 'specialized, demoralized, stigmatized individuals') qualify for these jobs. The only area that I noticed Wilson did not cover is the offer of healthcare, daycare subsiddies for these workers who, in my opinion, are the ones who benefit the most form these types of provisions. Finally, I did not view Beloved. My stomach cannot take viewing, in the comfort of an airconditioned theater, the inhumanities that my people suffered at the hands of others. The book was very difficult to read, and had it not been for this class and its requirements, there were many nights that I would have shut it (to be never opened again). Yet somehow reading about something and visualizing it is two distinctly seperate realities for me. One ( the textual) I can seperate from more easily that I can from the visual. I don't anticipate having nightmares about the scenes in Beloved anytime soon.

Wed Nov 18 21:04:31 PST 1998

Shannon Nemzer nemze001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

Group A- Well, here we are again. I wanted to respond to Mary's reponse to the question I posed regarding what may be some of the things that led Mercedes to to be so prejudiced towards people of her same culture. I wanted to say that I do agree with you Mary regarding the fact that she may have become very hardened over the time she has been in this country, I think that has a great deal to do with it. I was also thinking that in order for her to become a successful business owner in such a racially torn town, with obviously prejudiced government officials, she had to assimilate to the dominate culture and in that assimilation went beyond and actually "dissowned" it. Which is said to happen to many people of minority groups, who become successful, they often need to assimilate to advance in our society and are accused of being "sell-outs." When many times they may only be incorporating biculturalism into the way they move through their world. To address the question from Wilson's book, in essence I think Wilson supports the neo WPA jobs plan because the problem of joblessness in the inner cities has over the years caused even more internal problems in the community like a lack of interest to take pride in accomplishment, their community, and life in general. Wilson feels that not only will this plan solve some of the lack of money problems but also reinstill pride in the community and more effective and positive role models for their children. Thirdly when asked which relational problem I feel is the biggest strain, I would have to say inter-ethnic. I would choose this because as addressed in the lecture, sometimes some of these relationships have more ties than strains, and vice versa, I think this is the one with the least ties. That may be the problem, in intergenerational and intergender relations are cross-cultural, they occur over and over again especially in the family. The inter ethnic problem occurs less in the family itself, and many times exposure to the other side of the story is never really seen or understood. Did that make any sense?

Wed Nov 18 23:01:12 PST 1998

Anthony Simpson Hombredelsol@earthlink.net responded:

1. This in repsonse to Shannon who was responding to Mary. I think that Sherrif Wade had power becuase he was white as well, but also becuase he was the legitimate authority and had the power to arrest and deport. He also was in a position to kill and cover up his killing and to allow illegal activity to go on if he was cut in. He also had the advantage as a white person to take advantage of the fact that the Mexicans and Blacks were in a racist area and were looked down upon by the white residents. Maybe it's not so much as he had power because he was white but he had power becuase the whites were in power. 2. Wilson feels that a neo WPA could integrate urban infrastrucure repair with providing jobs and income. The program could target the sources of inter-city poverty while helping those who are impoverished. 3. Talk about hard questions. I think it's situational. From some like Willy and Biff its generational, but for Sethe and Schoolteacher its racial. I guess more people have to deal with inter-gender and inter-generational since everyone has parents and the sexes rely oneach other for procreation and companionship. Not everyone has dealt with racial hatred and may not understand it. I think society prepares us for some strain in our ties with the opposite sex and other generations, possibly not well enough. I don't think there is anyway to teach a child that he is superior or inferior because of race and for it to be healthy. For that reason I think that the greatest strain is race. 4. I saw Beloved. Oprah can't act! Everyone else was pretty good and the script remained honest. So honest that I think people who have not read the book will have trouble following it.

Wed Nov 18 23:08:33 PST 1998

Sally Fuentez fuent003@csusm.edu responded:

Hola! I would like to respond to Jeff's response to question 2. "(Q4 Meredith) Mercedes Cruz's immediate willingness to "speed-dial" immigration seems to be her attempt to distance herself from her past." I strongly agree with Jeff's and Meredith's response. Mercedes Cruz struggled to get where she was and therefore had to assimilate to the American way and reject whatever she could when it came to her own culture. In today's society things are beginning to change slowly. Children are being taught to respect other cultures and to be proud of their own. The curriculum is slowly recognizing the importance of implementing multi-cultural education. When I was in elementary school, I remember experiencing the opposite; I too had experienced assimilation to the extremes. I pretended not to understand my native language in order of not being put-down. I wanted so badly to fit in with the majority and did not want to be teased by the students or scolded by the teacher for speaking Spanish. It wasn't until I reached college that I first heard of positive Mexican role models; that is when I began to feel comfortable about my culture and I started to feel the huge weight lifted slowly off my shoulders. 2. Wilson supports the neo-WPA because this program is long overdue. This program will help the lower socio-economic class by creating employment, repairing infrastucture which had been in desperate need of an overhall and has also been a cause to why some of the people have stated that it has been a barier for them find work i.e., transportation, roads, etc. Most importantly it will give the the people that have limited resources incentive to become productive citizens. 3. This is a paper topic in itself. I guess it would depend on the person and their personal experiences. I, being a Mexican-American female, being involved in a inter-racial relationship, the youngest of nine, and growing up in which I thought was a predominately white neighbor-hood experienced a few strains. I don't want to say that being in an inter-racial relationship has been a strain, but there are times when I go with my boyfriend to meet some of his co-workers and maybe I am wrong, but I feel like I stand out because I am usually the only Mexican-American at the gatherings. If there are other Mexicans present, their significant others are usually also Mexican. Going into restaurants, malls, out in public, etc. I get a feeling that people (society) are watching or judging us. I know this is 1998 and we have come a long way, but sadly I still think that the majority of society believes that people should stick with their own. 4. I saw the film Beloved a couple of weeks ago and it wasn't easy trying to find a movie theater that was still showing it. I went to Escondido to see it and I enjoyed the movie very much. I thought that the movie followed the book very closely. It is kind of funny, but I kind of forgot that Beloved had mental challenges and they realyl emphasized it in some of the scenes. I was not too fond of the actress who played Beloved, and I also believed that the movie could have put a little more emphasis on Paul D. If you haven't seen it yet, GO SOON! Adios!

Thu Nov 19 08:58:01 PST 1998

Jeff Basford jlbasford@earthlink.net responded:

1. Mary Meredith responded to Shanon's inter-ethnic question saying that Mercedes had been hardened by her past. I agree, both of her relationships were destroyed because of prejudice against Mexicans. This made her distance herself from her heritage, a heritage that was not respected, that was abused in her town. Because of the prejudice toward immigrants in her town she attempted to create a Spanish heritage for herself. The decisive point in the film for Mercedes Cruz is when the immigrants come to her for help. I believe that her threat to call the immigration department was out of fear, as soon as she saw who was in the darkness outside her house she changed from threatening the immigrants to her standard bark. Mercedes callousness toward immigrants is partially due to her anger, developed from a hard past, and partially due to her recognizing that it will be extremely difficult for her employees in the U.S., hence she pushes them out of concern. 2. Utilizing the successes of FDR to support his position, Wilson supported the WPA because he believed that it would make jobs available to anyone who was willing to work. It would create jobs for those people without taking jobs away from others. The jobs it would create would further improve the circumstances in the inner-city by cleaning up that city. These jobs would fill the void that has been left by the exodus of manufacturing jobs. Because these jobs would be offered at less than minimum wage, they would only be desirable by those without other opportunities. 3. There are potential strains between all relationships in society. Of the relationships in question, inter-racial, inter-gender, and intergenerational, I believe that the inter-racial still poses the strongest strain in our society. It seems that we should be capable of leaving racial tensions to rest, unfortunately in studying this subject I've come to see the problem as something that will take longer to solve than I would have previously thought.

Sat Nov 21 12:29:46 PST 1998

Elise Baer baer002@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

#1. I would like to respond to Veronica's answer to Ledia's qustion proposed by Sheila... I agree with Veronica in that their is a double judgement going on when our parents look at our morals and values. Parents will raise their children a certain way and expect them to act accordingly. If those values are good, as an example, then when the child chooses not to adhere to those values then chaos usually occurs in the family structure. Whether it be fighting, no talking, ill feelings or no contact. Mercedes jugded Pilar just as 'society' treated those inter-racial relationships even Mercedes' own 'affair'. She probably had ill feelngs from that affair and this soured her to men in general. I am sure that that will have stopped in Pilars' relationships with her children. She will probably be 'happy' for her children whatever happens because she seemed to rationalize better than Mercedes who was very regimented in her thinking. #2 I agree with Sally in her response to Jeff's theory on 'assimilation' into society. It happens that now 'New York' is no longer the 'melting pot' of the world it is now the 'United States' and along with this comes many 'pockets' of ethnicity. We have a multitude of languages, races, and cultures that are trying with all their collective 'hearts' to gain accpetance. The word 'American' has not changed but the meaning in the future seems to be with a hyphenattion to afro, mexican, japanese,russian etc. It is hard to deny ones heritage but in the film Lone Star that is exactly what Mercedes had to do in order to assimilate into a culture mainly dominated by white men so she became a little hardened by the circumstances. This is the reason she acted hardened to the other immigrants because this was all her lifes experiences. This is what she handed down to her daughter, but it might stop with Pilar, and I emphasize the word 'might'. 2.(Wilson) believes in (Kaus' neo-WPA job plan) because it would be targeted to poor workers. He believes that a higher portion of workers with few skills or l little or no work experience would be employed than would be in the program of infrastructure maintenance. He believes in the process of finding immediate employment coupled long-term programs like WPA would solve the ghetto problems our society faces and lead our future generations to a better way of life. 3. This issue of greatest strains in a relationship is a question plaguing or society. I believe that the answer lies in the inter-ethnic problems which rely on our past experiences and how each of us must assimilate into society. Society is very complex in itself it encompasses a myriad of attitudes, norms, beliefs and values, along with the worlds (macro:financial,cultures,morals and vaulues) including our own(micro). Every person is part of the 'whole society' in which we live and interact and with a trend in 'America' toward world culture we are headed down a road that is very bumpy,uncharted and undeveloped. In the attempts from the past, there will be more successful ways of keeping pace with cultural diversity but if that attempt fails we are left with a society that is becoming more and more fragmented into pockets of cultural differences. I remember world expo's I think the Olympics is a sort of example of culture diversity at its best.