soc 311 salon 1

Salon #1:

Welcome to the first salon in SOC311. You should be able to receive this by Friday, August 28.

For the first two salons in this course, the days when you need to respond will be somewhat different from what they will be once we get fully underway.

I will need responses for the questions for Salon #1 by Wednesday, Sept. 2. This is also the day when I need to know for sure that you will be in the course. This should be sent as a separate e-mail. But responding to Salon 1 will be another indicator of your seriousness about participating.

The reading assignment for Salon #1 is the Declaration of Indendence (1776) which you can find on the Internet in various places. In addition, please carefully read and think about the mini-lecture notes that follow the instructions on how to find the Declaration of Independence. Following the Mini-lecture, there will be specific questions for you to respond to.

Here is my suggestion of where to find the text of the Declaration of Independence on the Internet (though I'm sure there are lots of places where it could be found):

Go into Netscape Navigator (or another Internet access) and go to:

www.metacrawler.com

then go to:

http://wilstar.net/july4.htm

From there you will have a choice of various documents. Select the Declaration of Independence and you'll get the full text. READ IT!

Mini-lecture for Salon #1:

We want to think carefully about what we mean by the concept of "equality" in the context of the United States. So we will begin by thinking about how this concept was used in the first document that moved towards the creation of the United States, the Declaration of Independence. You might first want to read through the Dec. of Ind. and see how the concept of equality seems to be used.

First:

It begins with an assumption that "all men are created equal,"
that Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle all men to this equal station

This is an appeal to the natural rights of man which precede any kinds of rights that might be granted by the laws of any government. These are rights with which individuals are born and they are thus granted PRIOR to the individual's entry into a social collective (a family, a society, membership in a nation state, etc.). Thus this concept of equality focuses very much on the sense of "individuals" forming the base of the American society. Note as well that the appeal to a supreme being (Nature's God) also reinforces the meaning that God has authored nature so that individuals (human beings) are equal to each other.

So keep in mind that the American concept of equality is closely related to a belief in Natural Rights.

These natural rights with which individuals are born are stated in the Declaration as including:

life: which implies the right to protection, sustenance
liberty: which denotes freedom to speak, write, religion, etc.
pursuit of happiness: which indicates rights to pursuing both material (economic) and spiritual ends.

This means that the rights of each individual stand independent from those of any other person. Thus one individual is not "above" or "below" any other person. This would imply that individuals would believe that there were no social distinctions between people (that every person deserved the same esteem as every other person). Now given that slavery was being practiced in the Southern American colonies at this time, and given that women are totally ignored in this document, it doesn't appear to be the case that what we mean by believing that all people are equal and deserve equal respect is very similar to what the founders of the United States had in mind. But they were moving in that direction in terms of thinking that individuals (or at least white men) had equal rights.

But most of the Declaration of Independence is spent on charging the King of England (George III) with not treating the American colonists like his English subjects. This suggests the second foundation of this document:

Second:

The Declaration of Independence rests on the belief that governments must derive their power from the consent of those they govern. This is an appeal to common law. In other words, the King doesn't have some type of divine power coming from God, but can only exercise power, if those he has power over consent to his authority. This is "pulling the King down" to the level of the people he governs, or making the people equal (or more equal) to the King.

As you remember from your American history courses, the colonists did not have representation in the English governing bodies and were taxed without their consent. So the Dec. of Ind is presenting the colonists' demands that they deserve equal rights (based on common law) to those the English subjects have (which at that time in the late Eighteenth Century were not many). The American colonists are joining with all those who have complained that the British monarchy was arbitrary (acted as it pleased without regarding its subjects) and stating that they don't like this treatment SO they are breaking away and forming a new government. Hence this part of the original concept of equality in America rests on the notion of equality before the law.

So we have been considering a number of different dimensions of the concept of equality as it was formulated in the Declaration of Independence, the first founding document of the new government of the United States of America which we all live under. Remember that comparatively the United States is a long-lasting government. It has lasted (though very changed) for more than 200 years--and that is a very long time in terms of the survival of most governments. We want to think about how important the commitment to social equality (however limited it was at the time of the Declaration of Independence and however limited it is today) has been as a central value and a major goal defining and guiding the course of the U.S. The search for equality (and the motivation to not experience inequality) is also a very important factor in your own life, which is a subject we will think about when we get to the 3rd salon.

Now here are the questions which I want you to respond to:

1. Where in the Declaration of Independence do you see the idea of equality developed? How is this done?

2. What did inequality seem to mean to the drafters of the Declaration of Independence?

3. If those who wrote the Declaration of Independence in 1776 were here today (222 years later) how far would they find that equality had been achieved in the United States? What would surprise them?

Preparation for Salon #2: To begin to get ready for the second salon, you will need to read the novel by Toni Morrison: Beloved.
The bookstore expects to have Beloved in by Sept. 1st or 2nd. However, since Morrison is a Nobel Prize winner making her a very famous author, this book, perhaps her most celebrated, is available in nearly every bookstore (Borders, Barnes & Noble, Crown). So you might well be able to find it this weekend on your own.

Try to buy the Plume edition of Beloved published by New American Library, so that if I refer to certain pages, we will have the same edition. You need to sit down and read about 50 pages to start with to get into the story. It is a powerful book and once you are "into it," you might not want to set it down. It is the story of a woman (and also of a man) who has experienced slavery, the most extreme form of inequality. We will want to read this to explore the depths: psychological, spiritual, moral, social of what inequality is.

Questions for Salon #2 will be posted on Thursday, Sept. 3rd and responses will be due the following Wednesday, Sept. 9. This will give you somewhat more time between salons because of the Labor Day holiday. Try to complete reading the novel by Sept. 9th. The third salon will also focus on Beloved, but it will good if you have the book read before Salon #3 is posted on Thursday, September 10th.

Enter your comments below (Don't forget to submit):

To view others' comments in this salon, scroll down this page. [Soc311--Inequality Home Page] [Return to Salon Menu] [CSU, San Marcos Sociology On-Line Courses] [CSU, San Marcos Sociology Homepage]

Salon #1 Responses

Sat Aug 29 21:09:58 PDT 1998

Jill Gustus gustu001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. The idea of equality was developed when they were discussing how God created all men equal and how God endowed them with certain rights. They stated that it's the government's responsibility to secure those rights, to make sure that all men are treated equal. (which wasn't the case back in England) 2. Inequality was the treatment they received from the King of Britian. They believed that the power should reside with the people. That the ruler or such shouldn't be above the law. If the ruler abuses his role, the people should be able to stop him. 3. The drafters would be very shocked. Equality has come a long way since their time. Blacks and women have a very different role in today's society. They wouldn't be able to understand that or believe in it because they didn't see them as equals.

Sun Aug 30 19:25:10 PDT 1998

Anne M. Chambers chamb012@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. In the very first line, "...it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands...." Rights, to the drafters of the Declaration of Independence, were God-given. However, this applied to white men only. Women and slaves from Africa were not considered to be anywhere near equals. They list agressions by the King of England against the people of the United States and declare them to be against the Laws of Nature. 2. Political repression by the King of England without any recourse. 3. They would be pleased that the Declaration of Independence is still being used by our government. Since they were wealthy, white males they would be see that the Congress is still wealthy, white male dominant. They would be surprised that women and African-Americans are afforded the same unalienable rights as they set forth in the Declaration of Independence for their peers,white males. I believe that they would see that political equality has come a long way. America's government has remained relatively stable since it was established. And has survived due to the belief today, as in their time, that everyone deserves to be treated equally under the law. We have expanded our realm of equality to include everyone, not just wealthy, white males.

Sun Aug 30 23:03:28 PDT 1998

mary meredith pbjs@lasercom.net responded:

1. After a brief explanation in the first paragraph of the declaration of the reasons to 'dissolve political bonds', the second paragraph begins with the famous line..."that all men are created equal"...The idea of equality was developed as the God-given rights of men and the governments role should be to ensure that all men are treated equal. 2. Inequality was clearly seen by the drafters of the declaration as the treatment they received by the King of England. His tyranical reign was seen as abusive and the desire of the drafters to empower the governed people to have a voice in the government was at the heart of the declaration. 3. It is clear, historically, that equality was, for the most part, exclusively owned by white men. I think that the drafters would find that things are 'more equal' than they were, but that true equality for all men and women is far from being achieved. I would like to believe that at least some of the drafters were visionaries of their time who had the foresight to see that 'all men being created equal' included all men and women. (Just as God is not color conscious, neither should we be.)

Sun Aug 30 23:20:58 PDT 1998

James T. Currey curreys@mailhost2.csusm.edu responded:

1. It starts in the first paragraph with "...to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...." The laws of Nature are God given and no government, or in this case the British Monarchy, can extract these rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness,from its people. The government is mandated to respect these rights and the people have the power to correct inequalities of repression by the present King of Great Britain. 2. Long term and unbearable total repression by the King of England. Taking away all representation and power of the people of the colonies. 3. They would find that equality has been extended (at least in theory) to all people, including women, descendants of slaves' and non-citizens living in this country. They would find that the British Government has been replaced by our own big business interests(they would be surprised with the concept of big business, itself) and society as the repressor of equality. They would be surprised at the concept of equality then and equality now. Today's "equality" is more often defined as "opportunity". We may all be created equal, but do we have equal opportunity?

Mon Aug 31 07:44:38 PDT 1998

Christina Glady glady001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1.As you read the Declaration of Independence you see that they tell you that all men are created equal by god. They beleived that all people were born equal. They tried to make sure that everyone had equal rights in America since they did not have equal rights in England. When you read it more and more you see that they were trying to gain their freedom from England. Most of the Declaration of Independence is trying to gain freedom and not listen to the king. 2.To the drafters equality seemed to mean that they were frr from the king and they would not have to do as the king said. They seemed to be trying to gain their independence from the king. I do not think that they believed that all men were created equal because they still treated others poorly. 3. If they were here today they would be really surprised. For the most part we all have equal rights. We all can try to do they same things so I think they would be surprised that the document that they wrote 222 years ago is still holding up. I do not think that they would be surprised to see that everyone is not equal. Some people have more while others have less, that was the case then and will always be the case. It is nice to think that we are all created equally, but we are not.

Mon Aug 31 18:29:59 PDT 1998

Katherine Kelleher kelle018@csusm.edu responded:

In the beginning of the "Declaration of Independence" it is stated that "All men are created equal". With this premise comes the development of a concept that our natural rights were given to us at birth by God. As individuals we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There is no distinction made regarding creed, color, gender, or social class. An individual is independent and entitled to the same esteem as every other individual. 2. The drafters of the "Declaration of Independence" viewed the King of England (George III) as a despot whose abuses and usurpations had imposed injury on the people of Britian. The people did not have representation in government, and taxes were imposed without consent. The "Declaration of Independence" was created to free Americans from allegiance to British rule. This document established our steadfast objection to all forms of Tyranny. It also set a precedent for working toward Common Law and public good. 3. The authors of the "Declaration of Independence" would find that much of their purpose has been achieved. They would see that the United States is still free and independent of British rule and has set an example for the people of other countries to aspire toward democracy. The goals for the right to contract alliances, establish commerce, and promote peace have also been upheld. Trade has been established with many other countries promoting a system of checks and balances. Taxes are determined on the basis of income, not arbitrarily imposed. Those who legally immigrate to the United States are granted citizenship and the right for equal opportunity. Although much good has been accomplished because of this document, the reality is that it's purpose has fallen short in some areas. Natural Rights to Life in the domain of protection and sustenance are often over- looked when greed and folly obstruct their importance. Opportunities to acquire education and training become more difficult when obtaining the necessities of life is the priority. Lack of adequate police protection and legal representation can hinder even those who are highly motivated toward the pursuit of happiness. What should have been the natural right for all has become an unobtainable dream for many. What would surprise the authors of the "Declaration of Independence" is that their stance created new thinking all over the world. Even if they did not plan so, women have achieved a more equal status in life. Womens' rights to vote would astonish them, let alone they hold positions of authority. Slavery has been abolished. Civil Rights have been enacted. What might surprise the originators of this document the greatest is that because they were experiencing a form of captivity themselves, they created a document inspired by godly principles that surpassed even their own intentions. Katherine Kelleher August 31,1998

Mon Aug 31 18:42:36 PDT 1998

Katherine Kelleher kelle018@coyote.csusm.edu responded:

Previously today I submitted the answers for Salon #1, however, even though it said it was submitted the program would now allow me to Reload to see my response. Hope it was received. Please let me know, Professor Baker.

Mon Aug 31 21:40:04 PDT 1998

Anthony Simpson hombredelsol@earthlink.net responded:

1.The idea of equality is developed in the beginning of the second paragraph. The text states that all men are equal and their rights of life, liberty of pursuit of happiness are granted by God not governments or kings. Governments made of equal men can not be allowed to violate those God granted rights. 2.The inequality the drafters focused on are based on the individual versus the state rather than the individual against individual, although in many places the drafters are comparing themselves to other British subjects. Issues included inequality in representation, taxation and justice. 3. I would have to imagine that the framers would be suprised at the broader application of equality which includes women and minorities. I also think that the framers would be suprised by the growth of goverment and its influence and the potential for abuse of rights that growth entails

Tue Sep 1 20:45:41 PDT 1998

Debra Taft debnjeff@earthlink.net responded:

When most of us think of the "Declaration of Independence" we think of the equality that it gives to individuals. This document does not begin by giving equality to individuals. People of the 1700's did not know what 20th century equality was. These were individuals who only wanted the same rights awarded to their counterparts back home. There was no need for the English subjects to rise above the King because they had a voice that was heard. The distance between the settlers and the King allowed him to ignore their cries for justice. The request for an "equal station" and a "respect to the opinion of mankind" shows the colonists desire to be at the same level of the English men. The founders’ plea that "all men are created equal" doesn’t provide equality to all people. When the founders thought of equality they were referring to the equality of white males. The founders did not see the inequality they placed on women and African-Americans. The inequality these individuals faced was similar to the inequalities the founders felt were being placed on them. If the writers of the "Declaration of Independence" were alive today they would see that we have not come all that far. Yes, women have the right to vote and African-Americans are no longer our slaves, but we still have not achieved equality (18th century or 20th century) We all have a utopia in our mind that the world will achieve, but this dream is far off from us. The 18th century dream that all white males can be equal hasn’t been achieved in the last two centuries. The 20th century dream that all people (men and women, black and white) are equal may never find itself a reality.

Tue Sep 1 21:16:41 PDT 1998

Sarah Dyroff Dyrof001@001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. Equality is defined in the 2nd paragraph where it states that all men are created equal and they have certain unalienable rights from God. These include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The government is created by men to accomplish these rights. 2. The Law of nature and nature's God entitles them to do what they believe to be fair and just. If this is not upheld, then it is considered to be inequality. 3. The writer's would be pleased to find that the government hey sought to create is still in force today. it has weathered our changing society but the basic core of upholding our unalienable rights are still protected. However, they would probably be dismayed at the fact that there are so many diverse people in our society that quality for these unalienable rights. They, of course, meant to protect the rights of the white, wealthy male. However, I also believe that these men had such wisdom and vision that they would quickly adapt to our scoieties belief that when we say "all men" are created equal, and deserve unalienable rights, that this means "everyone".

Tue Sep 1 21:29:21 PDT 1998

Beth Carson BCarson222@aol.com responded:

1. The idea of equality is developed when the writers state that all men are created equal, that we have been endowed by the Creator with certain unalieanable rights, and they also explain how it is government responsibility to protect the rights of equality for the security and well being of the people. 2. Inequality was the destructive treatment they felt they were receiving from the government and the King of Great Britain. He was abusive and opressed those under his rule. The power to make laws, pass taxes and basically every decision of substance was decided by the King and the tyranny of his government for the colonies, they were not given any power to make decisions or help govern themselves. 3. I think the writers would be stunned and surprised to see that all the freedoms that they desired for themselves have now been applied to people of all races, colors, backgrounds, and genders. I also think they would be surprised at the growth, power and respect the United States of America has gained since they wrote the declaration of our independence 222 years ago.

Tue Sep 1 21:46:30 PDT 1998

Veronica Castelo caste001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1.) In reading the second paragraph of the "Declaration of Independence", we come accross the statement "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...". In analyzing and understanding this statement, one discovers that the meaning of equality stems from the God-given rights and priveleges that we, as human beings, are born with. It is the responsibility of our nations' government to ensure that every individual is treated equally, and is granted the same rights and privileges as his neighbor. 2.) Inequality, as seen through the eyes of the drafters of the "Declaration of Independence", was viewed as the unfair treatment that the King of England (George III) had imposed upon his people. During this time, the drafters saw it fit to draw up the "Declaration of Independence" in order to prevent such unequal treatment from taking place in their country, thus eliminating its citizens from free, righteous, and prosperous lives. In a nutshell, the "Declaration of Independence" was created to protect the American citizens from falling under British rule and authority. 3.) If the drafters of the "Declaration of Independence" were here today, they would find that equality has progressed much farther than they had initially intended. They would be utterly shocked at the fact that many women are no longer waiting on their men, succombing to every want and need, and that women today are independant, powerful, and sometimes dominant. They would be surprised that women are allowed to vote, that they are executives, politicians, and entrepreneurs. In addition, they would be surprised to find that African-Americans are no longer slaves to the white man, that they too have become powerful beings, and role models, in todays' society. Although many inequalities have not yet been overcome and diminished, these drafters would find that our world today, is one in which they would have thought to be only an illusion.

Tue Sep 1 21:48:45 PDT 1998

Louise Basford jlbasford@earthlink.net responded:

Salon #1 1) The idea of equality first developes in the first paragraph. It states how the nature of God entitles man to their respect and their own opinions. The second part where I feel this took place was the first sentence in the second paragraph, "...All men are created equal." These are two very imortant pieces to the Declaration of Independence. It is done by focusing on mankind, what they want for the future, equality. An example is when the Americans began to stick up for themselves whilst the Bristish King was directing his power towards the British and not focusing on the Americans. They felt that they had no respect or were not able to express their own feelings. They began to split, wanting their own independence. 2)The drafters wanted to be seperate form the British, they were treated with neglect and no longer wanted to "deal" with it. So they seperated from the political connection with the British king, they wanted to be free, have their own sepereate colonies. Basically, it was somple, all they wanted was independence. The King directed his power to the British, refusing taxes, forbidding to pass laws, not being as equal to the Americans as they wanted.The drafters flet that they were now able to voice their opinions, wanting thier freedom, wanting what we all want, to be treated equal. 3) If the writers of the Declaration were here to today, they would feel successful but I don't think they would be satisfied, not yet anyway. Equality has come a long way since 1776 and it seems we are able to focus more on the phrase, "All men are created equal." Equality is such a big issue in todays world, I think the writers would not know what topic to focus on. Whether or not to focus on race, religion, sex etc. Are we really all created equal or is it something we can only dream about. The writers would have a problem with todays society, what they had planned in 1776 does not quite fit into todays puzzle, although it would be nice if it did.

Tue Sep 1 22:02:37 PDT 1998

Jeff Basford jlbasford@earthlink.net responded:

1. The idea developed as the authors establish what they hope to accomplish through their political separation from Britain. Viewed from today's perspective, "Men" being seen more as a reference to mankind the goal is admirable. However, viewed in its historical context, "Men" referring solely to White males, the goal sought is more of greedy self preservation than equality.

2. The drafters ideas on inequality can be found in their description of the specific injustices they have suffered at the hands of the King of England. Their idea of inequality is a comparison of the treatment of the colonists versus the treatment of the British subjects. 

3. Equality has been achieved that is far beyond that which the authors of the Decl. of Indep. intended. Surprising to them would be the range of people, race and gender, that their ideals have impacted.

Tue Sep 1 22:03:35 PDT 1998

sheila morrison cdckidzmom@aol.com responded:

1.) The idea of equality is broached in the first paragraph and again in the first sentence of the second paragraph. Both times the writers state that equality is given by a supreme being (God/their creator). It almost makes it impossible for any God fearing person to disagree with their ideas, it would be like they were disagreeing with God himself. Their definition of equality as the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness were in direct relation to the things they were being deprived of under the Kings rule. 2.) I found it interesting that the majority of this document is spent listing all the wrongs the king had inflicted on them. This seems to be their definition of inequality. It is also noteworthy that they had no regard for the rights of women or slaves, their main concern was the rights of men, white men. However, this comes as no surprise, as everyone basis their idea of equality on their own experience and self preserving ideal. 3.) If the drafters of the Declaration of Independence were to return today, I think they would have mixed emotions. Initially they would be impressed by all of our governments policies and programs to assure equality between men and women and people of all races. They would probably be a bit surprised by the roles some women and non-white males play in our society. However, if they spent any time actually living in our midst they would no doubt be shocked at the actual inequality perpetuated in our society today.

Tue Sep 1 23:21:50 PDT 1998

Britton Hill hillsrus@ix.netcom.com responded:

1. The idea of equality is developed in the begining of the second paragraph. It first states that all men are created equal. It then goes on to say that each is entilted to God given rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness and that a goverment, with the consent of the people, should carry out its duty to meet these ends or be altered or abolished. 2. Inequality meant that there was no say in the way they were being governed ,to the laws being applied to them, and to the way they were generaly being unequally treated by the King of Britain. 3. They would find that today every citizen no matter what gender or race is represented and has an oppurtunity to have a say in government either by voting or law making. I think the writers of the declaration would be very suprised that a government was set up, has survived over 200 years, and is still making decisions based on their ideals.

Tue Sep 1 23:28:52 PDT 1998

Andrew G. Fritzinger latigo@pe.net responded:

The concept of equality is developed in the portion of the Declaration that deals with the the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The Founders believed that all men had the right to life: essentially the right to exist and participate in reality, liberty; the right to have freedom and not fear oppression or supression of ones materials, beliefs or relationships and the pursuit of happiness; the right to seek out what pleases a person in all aspects of life. The Founding Fathers established a clear thourough yet concise view of what equality is in their mind, it was clear not only in it's content but also how it was written. The Founding Fathers had a very narrow view of what inequality was. Basically inequality was when the government or national leaders oppress and supress the population. This narrow view has evidence in the fact that slavery would take place for nearly 100 more years after the signing of the Declaration and the ignoring of women's issues at the time. Today the Founding Father's image of society today would be very unstable. They may feel as if great strides have been achieved when they see that society actually saw slaves as humans and then emancipated them. On the other hand they may become embroiled with frustration and disappointment and even discard emancipation as a charade when they see prevailing class-distinction especially on the urban level (inner cities) and stubborn, residual racism that remains in this country.

Wed Sep 2 10:15:37 PDT 1998

Estella Gallagher galla002@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

The idea of equality was first developed through the ever-famous line, "all men are created equal,.." Here we see the theme introduced in a way that makes the piece seem to be a declaration of equality for all. However as we read on the drafters views of equality become quite evident and they certainly are not those shared by the world of today. Inequality to the drafters meant the suppression of white, male, land owners. The social construction of the 18th century defined it as such. It was common knowledge to view women, children, people of color, and the poor as lower class individuals. That view no longer is the norm. The social construction of our present day society strives for equality among all humans. People today are shunned for discrimination against others, whereas 222 years ago that was the way things were. If the drafters of the Declaration were here today, they would find that we have advanced a great deal in the fight for equality; that women and people of color had achieved many rights through out the years. They would likely see it as a corrupt society that had failed and strayed from the norm that they were encultured too.

Wed Sep 2 12:59:45 PDT 1998

Ledia Flores lediaflor@hotmail.com responded:

1) The idea of equality appears to develop on the first two paragraphs. On the first one, they mention the laws of Nature and Nature's God providing every man with certain rights, and on the second one when they say that "all men are created equal". They do it basically by stating that every individual is born with the mentioned basic rights. 2)It appears that the drafters described as inequality the abuses and usurpations that the King of England was committing against the British people, such as laws not protecting nor applying to all British people, giving more power to the military and ignoring civilians, ignoring the Constitution, imposing taxes, etc. However, there is no mentioned of the crimes being committed against Africans, Native American, Irish, and other people throughout the world. Instead, what I see is their mentioning the many oppressions they felt the King was committing against just one specific group of people (maybe I'm wrong). Many of those rights mentioned, do not seem to be closely related to the rights of Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happines. 3) I think they would find that although many changes have taken place such as equality being applied not just to white people, they would also find that inequality continues to exist. Regardless of the accomplishments made by women and blacks, there are huge gaps between social classes, different ethnic groups, and men and women.

Wed Sep 2 21:04:37 PDT 1998

Shannon A. Nemzer nemze001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. The idea of equality is developed in the very beginning of the document, and although basically anyone that was not a white male was not in mind when the piece was written, it does not specifically exclude anybody. They descibe men as being equal based on the theory that they were all created by a higher power and given certain basic defendable rights; the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If all human beings were created by a higher power,like many believe, then we all, reguardless of race, color, or religion, should be equal and treated that way. 2. To the drafters of the Declaration of Independance, inequality seemed to refer to the King imposing government on them that is not in accordance to their needs and wishes, as well as not giving them any representation in desicions. 3. I believe if the creators were alive today to see the interpretation of their work, they would be quite surprised. I believe they would probably be surprised it is still in use, but also by the extreme that it has been carried out from it's original intention. Although the United States is not really as free as it may seem, and minorities of all types be it gender, race, age, religion, or beliefs are still constantly discriminated against, I think the writers would think we went overboard. They would probably be in somewhat of a state of disgust to see all minorities having the same opportunities to vote, become educated, and prosper. Sadly enough, I think they would feel like they had left something out, which at the time, they saw as a given.

Wed Sep 2 21:09:00 PDT 1998

Shannon A. Nemzer nemze001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

Wed Sep 2 21:09:17 PDT 1998

Shannon A. Nemzer nemze001@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

Wed Sep 2 21:30:40 PDT 1998

Kathy Johnson eric21@home.com responded:

1. The first two paragraphs in the Declaration develop the idea of equality - "…to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitles them…", "unalienable Rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", and "…Governments…derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." Also the last paragraph refers that the "People of these colonies are and of right, out to be, free and independent states", and "appeal (only) to the Supreme Judge of the World". The idea of equality is developed through excellent writing, reasoning, and the passion and sincerity of their beliefs, and this has stood the test of time. 2. The entire list of wrongs listed in the second and largest part of the Declaration of Independence are all about the inequalities and injustices the American colonists suffered in comparison to the citizens of England. Beyond that, what the citizens of England themselves often did not have, the American colonists wanted a government where they would have a say and fair and consistent rules. 3. They would find that women, children, and other races and cultures than white, had equal rights under law; that these people were treated as individuals with rights and not as pieces of property as was the case in 1776. Of course this is the ideal and the human element often makes the ideal flawed through bias, prejudice and ignorance. Another thing that would surprise them is free public education.

Wed Sep 2 22:17:52 PDT 1998

Bobbi Joyce Jones jnzn@mailexcite.com responded:

1. In paragraph one, where the writers are quick to note the relationship between 'the seperate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,' is evidence of their belief that they are inequal to only one entity, which is God. In all other respects, they wholeheartedly are convinced that they are equal to each and every other (white, male) citizen, up to and including King George III himself. It is this inate equality (the commonality supposed amongst all men) that is further discussed in the Declaration of Independence, as well as the anger that has arosed from the colonists due to the King's refusal to admit his equality amongst his colonial bretheren. They are angered at the subjective role in which they find themselves (as taxpayers, under the rule of England, etc...). 2. Inequality meant, to the drafters, that their mere access to certain freedoms such as life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, were subject to disapprobal and contraint from a supposed higher entity, namely King George (who, according to their own beliefs, should not be treated as a divine hierarchy, but rather as a cooperative leader who stood for the good of the people - all people). 3. From an Afrocentric point of view, if any of the original drafters were present today, I believe that they would be disappointed at the evidences of assimilation between minorities into the wider society. The drafters, many of whom owned slaves and fathered children born to slave women, would not believe that equality could be extended to include Blacks, Asians, and other minority groups. It is probably easier to state what WOULD NOT surprise them, in terms of our slow-but-steady progressive movement towards inclusion and non-separtism. The Neo-natzi movement, classically defined as an Anglo-inspired and supported (largely, but not necessarily) attempt to purify America and reserve certain freedoms for Whites only, wouldn't surprise them. In fact, it may make them feel as though their goals had been achieved (Reference: attitudes towards the 'merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes, and Conditions) through the continued discrimination towards people of color. The progression, once again slow, of women ( in the family, in the workplace, in education). The openness regarding sexual preferences and orientations. These are the things that would make their little wigs stand on end. Perhaps, if presented with each of these examples, the founding fathers (isn't a father a nurturer, someone to lean on for guidance and direction? What deemed these men as our fathers?) would rally together and make a political contribution to the Neo-Natzi party under the guise of self-preservation. I mean, they did state that '[they] mutually plege to each OTHER (capitalization added) [their] lives, [their] Fortunes (to which minorities were excluded with absolute firmness), and [their] Sacred Honor."

Wed Sep 2 22:43:33 PDT 1998

Rita Danskin lakegrove@aol.com responded:

The idea of equality is developed immediately with the words, "...people...assume...the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..." It is also of consequence that they state that this equality is "self evident." They defined inequality by describing how the King acted. They give a number of examples of his tyrannical behavior. Additionally, their definition of inequality is implied by their description of what they want to change. I think their use of the word "connected" in the first sentence was an interesting word choice. Right off the bat they want us to see that no hierarchy is implied. I believe they would feel proud that this document had withstood the test of time. Some of them might be surprised at its longevity---but not Jefferson! I'm sure he knew it was great and expected it to last. If they were brought here in a time machine, I think they would be pleased (and somewhat surprised) at the advancements that have been made in terms of equality. They would feel proud of the position the U.S. holds as a world power and the strength of democracy. However, if they were living now as men of the 1990's, they might be knocking their heads together in frustration at the inconsistency in definitions of equality.

Wed Sep 2 23:21:52 PDT 1998

Sally Fuentez fuent003@csusm.edu responded:

1. In the first paragraph where is states "one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station...nature's God entitle them. It is done by the Continental Congress appointing a committee to write the a document declaring independence for the thirteen colonies. 2. Inequality meant having to deal with King George III and the British governments unfairly practices: taxes, insults, and other problems the colonists had to put up with over the years of British dominion. 3. They would say that the powers of government were being abused and they would probably make amendments or take some of the powers back since they constituted them. It would surprise them that the people took their phrase "all men" to mean all human beings and not just all white men of America in 1776. We have a long way to go in abolishing oppression, however I don't think the creators would feel the same way I do.

Wed Sep 2 23:51:10 PDT 1998

Sara Rivera sarariv@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. The idea of equality is first introduced in the first few lines of the second paragrah. The idea is introduced by formulating their arguments as facts. The main basis of this argument calls upon "natural law" in otherwords being born human goes hand in hand with certain basic rights. The second argument is "common law" which argues that the king is not a deity and is no more or less than his subjects. 2. The definition of inequality seemed to be comprised of many different complaints such as: . They felt that the king was ignoring the basic needs of the colonies. . The king was not supporting or backing the legislative proccesses of the colonies. . They were very upset in regards to taxation without representation. . They felt abused,exploited and above all indignant that their fellow white English bretheren dare treat them as another exploited English colony. 3. I am not sure that they would view progress in this area as we do. To begin with they were fighting the cause for their exclusive social economic group, the white affluent male. I don't think that they would view the womens rights movement or their acomplishments in a positive light, nor would they approve of African-Americans or other racial groups being equal to the white man. I feel that they would view these as accidental consequences of their original intent. What would Surprise them? Racial Marriages, equality, homo-sexual rights and modern social mores in general. Needless to say the list goes on!

Thu Sep 3 15:52:09 PDT 1998

Daniel Brown Brown060 @ mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

1. I see the idea of equality being developed in the first lines of the Declaration. The authors have recognized the need to be independant and want to be seen as equals to the British governement and citizens. This is done by citing the "self evident" truths that "all men are created equal". They continue to cite the reasons for seperation from the "oppressor" the King ,and in doing so set the groundwork for what the definition of equality is. 2.Equality seemed to mean to the drafters, the ability to do the same as the British crown but under their own control. They cited the problems that they had with the British government and stated that they wanted to be able to pursue the rights to LIFE LIBERTY and HAPPINESS in their own terms. Doing this is what equality means to them. The modern definition has no relevance to their thoughts. They were based in their present rules and mores not what we think of in the present day. The fact that slaves and women and all the other minorities of 1998 were excluded is unfortunate but is not important to the root of the document written in 1776. Which is the right to self govern and the Pursuit of the three rights. 3aIf the founding fathers were here today I think that they would believe that equality has come a long way but I think that they would move to some other place and start over again bacause the government that they fled is easyily delt with compared to the government of today as far as size and control over the people. 3b I think the general construction of society today would be more than they could adjust to and insanity would be the only course for many of the founding fathers in dealing with the changes from thier day.

Thu Sep 3 15:57:49 PDT 1998

Carol Schirm schir001 responded:

1. The concept of equality is discussed in paragraph two. At the time of colonization, from what I remember from history classes, several groups of people were moving, or being moved to, the Americas. This group of people included criminals, laborors, indentured servants and free Englishmen. This last group I would suppose, supported the declaration of independence. These people were reconized as citizens of England. It sounds to me like they are reminding the King of England of this fact. Reminding him that they have access to the govornment of England as freemen and able to speak at Parliament. This group of freemen were used to the established liberties which they have consider their rights. From the discussion that follows of greviances, it sounds like the King is treating everyone the same, laboror and freemen, and the freemen are not happy with this grouping together. The amazing jump in concepts in the Declaration of Independence is when the writers declare that government has equal power over monarchy. This is essence says that the Parliament of England, which represents English freemen, has as much power as the monarchy.(this actually became true in England, whose monarchy now for the most part only for diplomatic purposes). This recognizes the other freemen of England in what appears to be an attempt to get them to rally against an unjust king. (which in English history has probably happened more than once). Inequality to the writers, it would seem to me, was having the rights they had as free Englishmen taken away from them. Women, laborors, of all races, are not in the Declaration of Independence because they were not free Englishmen. The writers of the Declaration of Independence would be suprised how far this concept has been taken. Free Englishmen had many rights afforded them, such as the right to have servants or slaves. This was a business concept which many of the writers of the Declaration of Independence would have supported.

Fri Sep 4 13:17:58 PDT 1998

Julie Schmidt juls@ix.netcom.com responded:

1) The idea of equality in the Declaration of Independence is first seen in the second paragraph which states "that all men are created equal". It is stated that born unto every man are certain rights granted by nature and natures God which are seperate from one individual to the next. 2) To the drafters of the Dec. of Ind., inequality seemed to mean the repression and unfair treatment such as they suffered under the King of England's rule. They had no representation in the English government and were therfore subject to things such as forced taxation. 3) Today I think they would be quite surprised. Since the Dec. of Ind. was written from a white male point of view, women and minorities were sort of left out. Today women and minorities (especially african americans) have come a very long way with women now being able to vote, and african americans being free of oppression as slaves. I also think that they would appreciate the extent to which we as americans all have a voice when it comes to our goverment. Although the gap between inequality and equality has greatly shrank, there is still not equality in the U.S. and we have quite a ways to go before there is total equality, if there is such a thing.

Sat Sep 5 00:38:58 PDT 1998

Mark Angelo Ware markaware@aol.com responded:

The drafters of the Declaration of Independence laid a unique foundation in formulating the idea of equality. They linked a people with God and Political Bands,--God being the giver of all rights. If anything violated the Political Bands then a severing of the people from the violating entity was possible and inevitable. In this case, the colonies separated from Great Britain. Equality, being a God given right, establishes itself in the first and the beginning of the second paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence. Inequality, to the drafters of the Declaration of Independence, meant that they were not treated as equal citizenry and that the laws they (the colonies) were asked to follow were not for the public good. The drafters went back to their initial foundation as their bases of justifying the severing of ties for the inequality that they felt they were confronted with--That the government is instituted among men from which it draws its power and the consent to govern. The drafters felt that the foundation was weakened through inequality and moved to abolish and institute a new government. Although there has been great strides to protect the rights of citizens, I feel that drafters of the Declaration of Independence would be astonished to see that little progress has been made to combat inequality in various forms. Racism continues to be more covert than overt, which I feel is more dangerous. Discrimination because of one's sexual preference, weight, gender, ethnicity, and on and on, continues to take a prominent part in our daily news. We have made great accomplishment in making the conscious of America aware of the inequality issues that perplexed this country 222 years ago, but we still have a long way to go.

Thu Sep 10 16:07:12 PDT 1998

Therese baker tbaker@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

Think about the religious nature of the Dec. of Ind. It isn't exactly how religious connections would be made now. The use of religious terms enables the founders to state that there are laws above human governments. Lots of interesting points made: big business interests would surprise founders society represses equality today's equality defined as "opportunity" (what are the different ways in which "equality" tends to be defined Haven't achieved equality--that would be a utopia Would "all men" refer to everyone today? Government must protect rights People base ideas of equality on own experience and self-preserving ideas Founders would still see huge inequalities by race, class, and gender Human element mades ideal of equality flawed through bias, prejudice, and ignorance. Were the founding fathers nurturing men? were they men to lean on for guidance? How would the founding fathers deal with the openness of today's society? Use of word "connected" suggests hierarchical connections--instead they seek separate and equal stations which suggests individuality. What did you relate to in these responses?

Thu Sep 10 18:59:06 PDT 1998

jeff Basford jlbasford@earthlink.net responded:

Here it is again, sorry I put it into a format that did not exactly work as I had expected.Thank you. - Jeff 1. The idea developed as the authors establish what they hope to accomplish through their political separation from Britain. Viewed from today's perspective, "Men" being seen more as a reference to mankind the goal is admirable. However, viewed in its historical context, "Men" referring solely to White males, the goal sought is more of greedy self preservation than equality.2. The drafters ideas on inequality can be found in their description of the specific injustices they have suffered at the hands of the King of England. Their idea of inequality is a comparison of the treatment of the colonists versus the treatment of the British subjects. 3. Equality has been achieved that is far beyond that which the authors of the Decl. of Indep. intended. Surprising to them would be the range of people, race and gender, that their ideals have impacted.

Sat Sep 12 11:15:46 PDT 1998

Anne Chambers chamb012@mailhost1.csusm.edu responded:

The Declaration of Independence was written with a strong religious tone. Today, with the separation of Church and State, it, if rewritten, would be worded very differently. The words "all men are created equal" would have to be "politically correct." Equality in the work place is defined that the job may not discriminate against sex, color, creed, or religion. However, discrimination occurs all the time covertly. We have not yet reached equal pay for equal work. The founding fathers were not in the slightest nurturing men. They were slave-owners. The notion of the Declaration of Independence came from them trying to save themselves, as businessmen, from the tyranny of King George. They would be appalled at the openness of today's society. The fact that there are African-Americans as business owners and corporate officers would rattle them. The term African-Americans alone would set them off. Also that women are regarded as"equals" would almost bring them to their knees. Women were there to reproduce and to serve their needs. I can't even imagine what they would think about the openness of gays and lesbians. Concept to which they would have likely responded to with death. We have reached somewhat the status of individuality. However, in any society there must be some form of hierarchial connection or there would be chaos. As Senator John Ashcroft said on Good Morning America on 11 September 1998, "This system is designed that no one person is so important that we can't do without him. If that were true, that person would be above the law and no one is above the law." The writers of the Declaration of Independence wrote the works that all men are created equal for this reason. No one IS above the law. What is amazing to meis that this document was designed with the King of England in mind and now it is being referred to with Clinton in mind.

Mon Sep 14 19:28:47 PDT 1998

Elise Baer baer002mailhost.1csusm.edu responded:

1. The 'meaning of inequality' becomes evident in the first paragraph of the 'declaration of independence'. If I may quote, "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of th earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nuature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." This means that man should live as a 'people' and each man should hold true that "all men are created equal". 2. Inequality seemed to mean to the drafters of the declaration of independence that all mean have an unalienable right which are the following: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That the 'people' who are governed are the holders of those rights as stated in this document. That when any form of government becomes destructive, it is the right of the 'people' to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government. 3. Well if the writers of the declaration of independence were alive today, they would definitely be surprised to say the least. First of all the institution of affirmative action in the school system giving minority students access to education. While this has been taken away from higher educational institutions, they would have been interested to see that it did allow for 'minorities' to be waivered into universities. Now, it appears that there is still a debate over 'enough is enough' on affirmative action, just the words take on a meaning. 'Affirming' means to establish or declare students admittance into a university soley based on a 'past history' of a 'race' treated unfairly throughout history. They would have also been surprised on how 'womens rights' have been separated from men in our society. Women have come far in regards to acheiving equality in status (money,political power,education,careers,right to vote), they would be proud, of that I am sure. Women have done this solely based on their education, experience, and determination. This is an equality the founders did not forsee when they wrote the document.

Tue Feb 2 16:59:48 PST 1999

Garrett garrett@ responded:

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